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Subject: Rule G1.611 rss

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David Williams
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Sorry, me again. Does this mean that only crews can fire MMG/HMG & ATRs without the Break# and ROF#s being lowered?
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Malcolm Cameron
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Yes.

The Japanese play very differently to other nationalities. Crews manning their MMGs and HMGs is one of the oddities (which I mean in a good way). There are many others.


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Klas Malmstrom
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Japanese SMC can also fire them without the B#/ROF penalty.
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David Williams
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
Japanese SMC can also fire them without the B#/ROF penalty.
Weird.
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Klas Malmstrom
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The Old Man wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
Japanese SMC can also fire them without the B#/ROF penalty.
Weird.
Perhaps they were the ones training the crews.
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Stephen Rynerson
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The Old Man wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
Japanese SMC can also fire them without the B#/ROF penalty.
Weird.
I'm not sure if there's a realism argument for specifically allowing Japanese SMCs to fire them without penalty, but in ASL terms COs/NCOs (regardless of nationality) are always considered "Elite" and thus automatically have advantages in using various SWs. This abstractly represents command personnel typically having more training/experience than the average foot soldier.
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Robin Reeve
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Anyway, a lone leader fires a MG at half FP.
 
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Marc Hanna
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It totally makes sense that Japanese SMC can fire MMGs without breakdown penalties. They are elite after all, similarly to crews. This is not one of the most annoying special rules wrt to Nationality differences, because it is consistent.

However, this whole crew / breakdown business was an infiltration by grudge rule peeps, who managed to influence the initial COB design. Same set of designers later influenced the HOB 'Firefights' modules, who insisted on SW breakdowns if crews did not serve SW.

When people with pet peeves/obsessions work in close conjunction with MMP, they often seem to get their way in product releases. Hence, for example, we are now stuck with 6-7 different MMC for Finnish troops, yet we are not -- nor will be -- close to a similar package for Romanians, who lost 20 times casualties in WW2 in comparison to the astonishingly diverse Finnish supermen we see in ASL.

 
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Tuukka
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Honosbinda wrote:
Romanians, who lost 20 times casualties in WW2 in comparison to the astonishingly diverse Finnish supermen we see in ASL.
Is this correct? According to wikipedia total Romanian casualties, including civilian were 500 000 and Finnish 85 000. (World War II casualties)
 
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Marc Hanna
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LtUrban wrote:
Honosbinda wrote:
Romanians, who lost 20 times casualties in WW2 in comparison to the astonishingly diverse Finnish supermen we see in ASL.
Is this correct? According to wikipedia total Romanian casualties, including civilian were 500 000 and Finnish 85 000. (World War II casualties)
Not sure how accurate wiki is; but I do admit hyperbole in taking a stab at the casualties disparity between the nations, in order to emphasize the point.

And the disparity still still stands out -- looking at the chart you linked -- both Poland and Romania deserve their own OB's, if Finland does -- and probably the Free French as well. I've never been satisfied that becoming supplied/equipped by the British turns French/Polish into British-type soldiery. It's not consistent game development, if Hungarians stay Hungarian-ish when supplied by Germans and/or Russians, for example. On the positive side, Hungary's OB was reasonably overhauled and developed in OoB and certainly FB, but are not treated as if they are German drones.

My post is somewhat speculative as to this origin of this MMG/HMG breakdown rule for the Japanese. Yet, everyone and their daddy can use the Japanese knee mortars without penalty; MMG/HMGs can be used by every squad type in all of ASLdom without penalty (barring uniform green/conscripts penalties). So, this Japanese quirk rule stands out of order for the usual differentiation between nationalities offered as flavor to the game.

It's often fans that feed the MMP production machine; it's not unexpected that they will push getting as much of their design ideas as they can. Somebody out there would need to push the Poles, Free French and Romanians as did the Finn-fan die-hards. Last I heard, BFP was working on Poland, but that initiative may have lost some juice.
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Tuukka
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I agree about the more detailed OB for Romania and the Free French.

Back to the topic.
 
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Robin Reeve
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The great variety of Finnish squad types was due to the very debatable squad types provided in BV.
If things were to ge redone, only the HP new types would have been chosen.
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Marc Hanna
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Robin wrote:
The great variety of Finnish squad types was due to the very debatable squad types provided in BV.
If things were to ge redone, only the HP new types would have been chosen.
Interesting! But things were redone in HP! So, if true, the proper decision would have been to chuck out the old OB, shred the old scenarios that can't work and only use the new stuff. Why not? They did it to squad leader with ASL and the original BV modules is decades old. Nothing wrong with a little cancer surgery.

Probably was too tough a nut to swallow; getting rid of those 838s.

@ Tuukka: the topic has been elaborated, not hijacked. I suppose that's a matter of opinion.
 
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Tuukka
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New Finnish OB is much better. I didn't like to play Finnish scenarios because the OB just felt wrong. 8-3-8 squads should be discarded and 6-4-8 made the elite for some jääkäri and sissi formations.
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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LtUrban wrote:
New Finnish OB is much better. I didn't like to play Finnish scenarios because the OB just felt wrong. 8-3-8 squads should be discarded and 6-4-8 made the elite for some jääkäri and sissi formations.
There is, of course, nothing stopping future scenario designers from using the 6-4-8 as such, instead of 8-3-8.

I fail to see what discarding the existing counters and the old scenarios would accomplish - they already exist and we are all free to play them or not.

Sure, not having them in HP, probably would have driven the price down somewhat, but I'm not sure how much.


I've always had the feeling that the original Finnish MMC might have been modeled as if they always fought during the Winter War, facing hords of Russian units.
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Tuukka
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I meant for future scenarios, not that they should've been left out from HP.
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Klas Malmstrom
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LtUrban wrote:
I meant for future scenarios,...
Ok. I think that might very well be how future scenarios will be designed...
 
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Robin Reeve
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Honosbinda wrote:
Robin wrote:
The great variety of Finnish squad types was due to the very debatable squad types provided in BV.
If things were to ge redone, only the HP new types would have been chosen.
Interesting! But things were redone in HP! So, if true, the proper decision would have been to chuck out the old OB, shred the old scenarios that can't work and only use the new stuff. Why not? They did it to squad leader with ASL and the original BV modules is decades old. Nothing wrong with a little cancer surgery.

Probably was too tough a nut to swallow; getting rid of those 838s.

@ Tuukka: the topic has been elaborated, not hijacked. I suppose that's a matter of opinion.
It would have meant a 4th Beyond Valor edition.
That was the major obstacle to radical change.
So we still theoretically have the original Uebermenschen armed with German machineguns (which is totally ahistorical).
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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Robin wrote:
So we still theoretically have the original Uebermenschen armed with German machineguns (which is totally ahistorical).
Though that is likely (IMO) to only be the old scenarios that will use German MGs. New one will probably not.
 
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Jason Johns
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LtUrban wrote:
I agree about the more detailed OB for Romania and the Free French.


Well...

Since they have a Korean War module coming out, I want to see a Spanish Civil War mod, with Nationalist (blue insides with grey border) and Republican (? inside with Russian brown borders) sides.

And NOW ...


LtUrban wrote:
Back to the topic.
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Hawkeye
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iamspamus wrote:
LtUrban wrote:
I agree about the more detailed OB for Romania and the Free French.


Well...

Since they have a Korean War module coming out, I want to see a Spanish Civil War mod, with Nationalist (blue insides with grey border) and Republican (? inside with Russian brown borders) sides.

And NOW ...


LtUrban wrote:
Back to the topic.
I know that a Spanish Civil War mod is under discussion at MMP, but there are obviously other projects ahead of it.
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Marc Hanna
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Robin wrote:
]It would have meant a 4th Beyond Valor edition.
That was the major obstacle to radical change.
So we still theoretically have the original Uebermenschen armed with German machineguns (which is totally ahistorical).
Yeah I see what you mean. And good thing you mentioned something about machineguns so we aren't off topic....

But since when it is impossible to coordinate the components of different module releases such as BV 3 and HP? Some game companies manage it all the time. Plus, HP had been vaporware for over a decade to fiddle with.

klasmalmstrom wrote:


I fail to see what discarding the existing counters and the old scenarios would accomplish - they already exist and we are all free to play them or not.

Sure, not having them in HP, probably would have driven the price down somewhat, but I'm not sure how much.


I've always had the feeling that the original Finnish MMC might have been modeled as if they always fought during the Winter War, facing hords of Russian units.
Well, the whole Finnish OB situation is way out of the norm; the point of not including those original scenarios/counters in new edition releases of BV is to emphasize there has been a change. The point is also taking control of the product line in a coordinated and cohesive fashion.

Game companies tend to keep all of the stuff from before, or trash the whole line and start again. As far as ASL is concerned, the stewards have done a great job avoiding that (notwithstanding they had to trash Squad Leader to get to ASL), except for the Finnish re-release.

Just of the opinion here that if there is an opportunity to redecorate, then don't patch the wallpaper so the old stuff shows through.


 
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