Kjetil Svendsen
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The iOS app from Digidiced lets you use your opponent's buildings in sector 4 + 1, even if you don't have any money.

They even make a point of it in the tutorial:

Quote:
Unfortunately the Sawmill belongs to our competitor as shown by the colored circle. We will have to pay him 1 Franc to use it.

Mon dieu! We do not have a Franc!

But the last column gives us 1 bonus Franc. We can use that to pay the competition.
But according to Hanno Girke, this is not right (see this thread.):

Quote:
Q: If an opponent buys use of a building in my 4+1 spot, does he get the Franc or do I?

Hanno Girke: Your opponent gets the +1 Franc.
This action can't be taken if you don't have that Franc in advance. Therefore, you can't pay your opponent the 1 Franc to be named later as the entry fee.
Edit: The app uses the correct rules. It's the physical game that had some unclear rules. This will likely be fixed in next printing. I have changed the title of this thread to reflect this.
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Andy Burgess
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
Interesting. Although of course Hanno would be in a position to know and I would not, and I assume he spoke with Uwe about this, I find such a ruling bizarre, and not at all supported by the rule book, which just says that "the player" collects a franc.

I wonder if this will reopen the discussion and get a different decision...?
 
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Andy Burgess
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
MercifulBiscuit wrote:
Interesting. Although of course Hanno would be in a position to know and I would not, and I assume he spoke with Uwe about this, I find such a ruling bizarre, and not at all supported by the rule book, which just says that "the player" collects a franc.

I wonder if this will reopen the discussion and get a different decision...?
Oh, hang on - I should read more closely.

Actually, this is just what I'd expect - including that you'd need to be able to pay to use the building *before* you use it. I agree that it looks like a misunderstanding in the app.
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Hanno Girke
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
Well.

At that time, it wa that way.
When it became apparent that the app was in the makes, the rules were revisited and simplified.
The next rulebook version will reflect this change. Still, use it as a house rule, if you like to play with the old rules.
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Grant
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
Hanno wrote:
Well.

At that time, it wa that way.
When it became apparent that the app was in the makes, the rules were revisited and simplified.
The next rulebook version will reflect this change. Still, use it as a house rule, if you like to play with the old rules.
That's really kind of sad that the game rules were changed to accommodate the app.

I also don't get why it's more simple to say "you can take an action you can't afford as long as you use the money you get from said action to pay for it after the fact" as opposed to "you can't take actions you can't afford."
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Andy Burgess
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
I don't read that as "the rules were changed to accommodate the app" but just as "here's a chance to think about the rules again". Possibly it was felt that this way was slightly better balanced. I'm not sure how often it would occur anyway...

Interesting to note that this does bring the game in line with other games in which you can pay with income earned in the same turn, for example The Castles of Mad King Ludwig. Don't know whether that was even considered as a factor, though.

Edit: also, I'm not sure it's fair to say that the rules were changed, as the rules had nothing to say on this matter one way or the other. This was just a clarification made in the BGG forums.
 
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Kjetil Svendsen
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
I also find it more logical that you have to pay for something before you can use it. It is almost always like that in other games. I haven't actually played the physical version, but I found this a little strange when I played through the tutorial, and when I checked the rulebook the rules were different.

I don't understand what problem this change is trying to fix. Since I haven't played the game before, it could be some game mechanic reason for this. But saying that it makes the rules easier makes no sense to me. I can use my opponent's building in sector 4+ without money, but without money I can't use my opponent's Grocery Store, even though that would also give me 1 Franc — unless I use it in sector 4. How is that easier?

For those that have played the game before, how will this change in the rules affect the game?
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Felix Dreyfus
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
Thanks for getting this issue to our attention!

I've talked with Uwe a few hours ago and he confirmed that the way it was done in the app was the right one. I re-read the rules multiple times since then to understand why I implemented it the way it is now.

It's true that there is no mention of the bonus franc when using a building of an opponent. There is however the mention of it for the 2 buildings that need francs for their usage: the Wood Trader and the Fish Market. Since both these buildings state that you can use the bonus coin to cover the cost of the building usage and that the coin you must pay to your opponent can be considered a cost of usage, the final implementation enabled the use of any building on the 4+ stage.

The reason why its not the same with the Grocery Store is that the coin you get from it is not a bonus coin, it's a coin generated by the building's effect. Therefore you get it after paying the cost.

When we implemented the app and tested it, it seemed to be the natural way to interpret the rules. As far as I understood, the rules update included in the next version of the board-game are not an accommodation per se but a clarification.

We put a great deal of value on the correct implementation of rules and we would not be comfortable with rules being changed on our behalf. We will of course change the implementation in case anything slips by us!

I hope this answers any question you had. If not please feel free to ask more.
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Kjetil Svendsen
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Re: Rules mistake in iOS app (Sector 4 + 1)
Thank you for the reply!

I know that when you make a digital version of a boardgame, you have to be extra careful with the rules because you to take into account every possibly scenario and how it handels rule conflicts and timing issues.

So that's why I was puzzled when I assumed that the rules had changed.

The rules are a little vague on this point. In the example they first pay the opponent, then use the building and finally get 1 bonus Franc. Wood Trader and Fish Market could imply that you get the bonus Franc first – but it could also be a special case for these buildings.

I did look through the rules forum before posting this, but it seemed like the official and general concensus was that you had to pay first. But thanks to your app we now know what is right.

So the timing should be:

1) Get bonus
2) Pay opponent
3) Use building
 
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Clearly, this is a rules change.

The original game came out before Castles of Mad King Ludwig.

While this change (use reward to pay to get reward) is a behavior that exists in CMKL, I think that there are many games that do not have this CMKL behavior; I would not consider it the norm. I think that there are many games in which you must have the resources to pay for something and you cannot use any resources that that something would provide subsequently.

In fact, a prime example of a game with this more standard approach is the original Le Havre:
Quote:
There is often a fee to use another player’s building; this is shown at the top right of the Building card (between the building costs and the Sort order number). It must be paid to the owner of the building, either in food or in Francs, before the building can be entered and used.
Of course, the "1 Franc" reward in Inland Port does not correspond directly to "enter and use" in Le Havre.

I hope that the rules for Inland Port aren't being changed solely to match CMKL.
 
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Andy Burgess
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Yes, of course LH:IP predates CMKL. But that doesn't mean it wasn't an influence. Perhaps this was a mechanic that was seen to work well in that game which wasn't originally considered for this one.

Also, I stand by this not being a rules change, simply because I don't see it covered in the original rules at all. It's a change to the clarification advice, at best.

I think the Wood Trader and Fish Market examples are interesting, showing that this idea was at least partially considered for LH:IP in the first place.

And all of that aside, I doubt that anyone would change the rules "solely to match" another game. But an interesting idea can be "borrowed" on its own merit.
 
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MercifulBiscuit wrote:
I stand by this not being a rules change, simply because I don't see it covered in the original rules at all. It's a change to the clarification advice, at best.
This conclusion seems at odds with Hanno's statement.

He said that his original answer (pay first, then collect bonus) was based on the rules as they existed at that time. He said that the rules were subsequently simplified. In fact, he refers to it as a change.

While it may be true that the original rules were not explicit here, it seems that, in the mind of the game's producer, the rules have been changed since the game was first published.
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Andy Burgess
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I can see your point of view.

But in the best traditions of Internet discussion, I have no intention of agreeing with it.
 
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Hanno Girke
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You know, rules are written in the designer's intent.
SOme things seem logical and self-explaining.

After publication, you watch players play the game. You find out that some rules are abused, changed, mistreated, ignored.

If you plan a new edition, you revisit the rules, and sometimes just change those who are not used or unintendedly used.
(I, personally, will continue to play the old rules and consider the new interpretation as a house rule. They're both good nd valid, but I favor the sharper version. But I see the point that the simplified version helps weaker players, and that's absolutely fine with me.)
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Silver Fang
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I haven't had a chance to read all the threads posted for this game yet so my apologies if this horse has been beaten before.

This is example #2, taken from page 4 of the rulebook in my copy of the game:

"Max wants to use Emma's Business Office in Sector 4 + @. He pays Emma 1 Franc and then moves his four goods counters diagonally down to the left and collects 4x5=20 Francs plus 1 bonus Franc for the sector."

He (first) pays 1 Frank...and then (uses building, receives bonus)

In the rules quote above, Max did not receive the 4 building actions, nor the bonus Franc, until after he first paid for the use of that building.

If someone has a different interpretation I would be curious to know the logic behind that interpretation.

I did notice that on the last page my rulebook has a 2012 copyright date. Perhaps a revised version has been published of which I'm not aware.

All this being said, I use house rules for many games for various reasons, so do what works for you.
 
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