Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
84 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

BGG» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Joe's Crab Shack trying no-tipping model rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
James Myers
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
badge
speculative and begging for drama
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pick your own source!

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

So, America is seeing a few restaurants where tipping is no longer allowed. For those who don't want to click, wages are going from ~$2.30 + tips to ~$13/hour. This isn't fully rolling out, the chain is trying it in select locations as an experiment. That's even better.

Why do I care?

Because tipping is discriminatory and should be illegal.

Bear w/ me.

Here's a podcast for the very interested:

http://freakonomics.com/2013/06/03/should-tipping-be-banned-...

Here's a quote from the transcript:

http://freakonomics.com/2013/06/03/should-tipping-be-banned-...

Quote:
DUBNER: Slender. A slender, good looking, big-breasted woman in her 30s gets a big tip. Color me shocked I have to say.
Oddly, tipping might not be sexist.

Quote:
DUBNER: Okay, and what about a waitress versus a waiter generally?

LYNN: Hard to say. In general, I would say that waiters get better tips from women than men. Waitresses get better tips from men than women.
And below is the most interesting part:

Quote:
DUBNER: So let me…You obviously know so, so, so much about this strange but common practice of tipping. If you could rewrite the custom, rewrite the social more, which is obviously impossible because it arrives over time with a lot of people participating in it, what would you do, how would you make tipping more either sensible, or directly related to the things it should be related to, and so on?
LYNN: You know, I think I would outlaw it.

DUBNER: You would?

LYNN: Yeah, and it might be illegal as it is because of the race of server effect that we had previously discussed. It’s conceivable…You could make the argument that tipping is a condition of employment that has an adverse impact on a protected class.

DUBNER: So it’s discriminatory you’re saying.

LYNN: It’s discriminatory. Yes, and the Supreme Court has ruled that even neutral business practices that are not intended to discriminate, if they have the effect of adversely impacting a protected class are illegal. And so it’s not inconceivable to me that there will be a class-action lawsuit on the part of ethnic minority waiters and waitresses claiming discrimination in terms of employment. And it’s conceivable that tipping might be declared illegal on that basis.
What do you think?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
I have a cunning plan
Avatar
Microbadge: ASL fanMicrobadge: Amateur AstronomerMicrobadge: I am related to Monkeys!Microbadge: 'Come and see the violence inherent in the system!'Microbadge: I ride my bike everywhere!
If the waitstaff are getting a living wage, I'm totally on board with a no-tipping model.
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Microbadge: Fan of Agatha Raisin TV series, adapted from stories by MC BeatonMicrobadge: Fan of Volition GamesMicrobadge: PescatarianMicrobadge: Starsiege and Starsiege: Tribes FanMicrobadge: Fan of Ms Fisher's Modern Murder Mysteries
About time.

Ridiculous practice, absolutely antiquated, and downright anachronistic in post-feudal cultures.

About the only folks who remain die-hard advocates of it are the egomaniacs who like the power-trip from feeling like they have some control over any part of another person's life (although given how little difference it makes, the pettiness of that attitude is its own form of bizarre).
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
While unsurprisingly larger breasts lead to larger tips from men, interestingly the increase from women is even larger. At least under the rigorous testing methods of Mytbusters.

4 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Russell
United States
Clarkston
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's going to be a lot of waitstaff that like getting paid for performance that will hate a change like this and a lot that prefer everyone be paid the same. Guess which group generally does a better job waiting tables?

If you've ever been in a restaurant in Germany (where the tipping custom is none to really low), you've probably already experienced this brave new world.

(Unless, of course, you can somehow instill pride in a job well done. Japanese restaurants often have great service.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Microbadge: Fan of Agatha Raisin TV series, adapted from stories by MC BeatonMicrobadge: Fan of Volition GamesMicrobadge: PescatarianMicrobadge: Starsiege and Starsiege: Tribes FanMicrobadge: Fan of Ms Fisher's Modern Murder Mysteries
MWChapel wrote:
I think for it to work, most restaurants in an area needs to adopt it at the same time, or you might get the bottom of the barrel employees.
Yeah, such a change really needs to come down through employment policies dictated by a state or city, rather than individual businesses. Unless the new 'average' is higher than even the really-good wait staff were getting on a hot night (which it may well be - this IS Joe's Crab Shack we are talking about, after all), I suppose. In which case, they aren't going to leave because they are getting paid better at the same time as their coworkers are now getting paid as much as them.

qzhdad wrote:
(Unless, of course, you can somehow instill pride in a job well done. Japanese restaurants often have great service.)
I think customers would just need to work to be somewhat less passive-aggressive (which tipping allows for). If you are getting great service, let management know and they can adjust for that in the regular worker pay. If you get awful service, ALSO let the management know and they can deal with that, too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
I have a cunning plan
Avatar
Microbadge: ASL fanMicrobadge: Amateur AstronomerMicrobadge: I am related to Monkeys!Microbadge: 'Come and see the violence inherent in the system!'Microbadge: I ride my bike everywhere!
MWChapel wrote:
What will probably happen, is that the best Waitstaff who regularly made over $12 and hour in tips will leave to a restaurant that has tipping, and those who didn't make $12, for "various" expected reasons, will remain.

So what you will probably get is less than optimal service, or a waitstaff who will no longer wish to work the peak shifts as why work a crazy friday night shift when you get paid as much as a monday afternoon?

I think for it to work, most restaurants in an area needs to adopt it at the same time, or you might get the bottom of the barrel employees.

But it is Joe Crab Shack, so probably not getting the creme anyways.
Maybe. I think if you give someone decent pay and benefits for the work they do and treat them with respect, they'll do a good job. Lots of people have jobs where extra effort is often required and are willing to put in the work when its needed. Pro tip: they won't do it for minimum wage.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Russell
United States
Clarkston
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:


qzhdad wrote:
(Unless, of course, you can somehow instill pride in a job well done. Japanese restaurants often have great service.)
I think customers would just need to work to be somewhat less passive-aggressive (which tipping allows for). If you are getting great service, let management know and they can adjust for that in the regular worker pay. If you get awful service, ALSO let the management know and they can deal with that, too.
Do you (or anyone you know) give feedback to management regularly in retail stores (that don't have tips) now?

It seems like a huge stretch to expect customers to quickly adapt to giving feedback verbally or even with surveys. (Although, maybe I am wrong on surveys, because a lot of businesses seem to think this is worthwhile.) And, honestly, I really dislike the 'checkmark' visits from the managers at restaurants asking if everything is ok.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
casey r lowe
United States
butte
Montana
flag msg tools
mb
MWChapel wrote:
What will probably happen, is that the best Waitstaff who regularly made over $12 and hour in tips will leave to a restaurant that has tipping
thats true because why would i want a fixed hourly wage if i could earn an average $1 more being superficially nice to even the biggest jerks
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Ami. Geek.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The idea of socially expected tipping, or even required tipping as many people perceive it, infuriates me, so I applaud the concept. But I agree with people suggesting it's an all or nothing proposition. If only a few places ban it, they will lose business and die in the end.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
casey r lowe
United States
butte
Montana
flag msg tools
mb
if the military got $2/hour plus tips for accurate kills we might of won the iraq war
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
badge
speculative and begging for drama
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ejmowrer wrote:
The idea of socially expected tipping, or even required tipping as many people perceive it, infuriates me, so I applaud the concept. But I agree with people suggesting it's an all or nothing proposition. If only a few places ban it, they will lose business and die in the end.
Personally -- and I recognize I'm very biased here -- I very much like the idea of not tipping. It's socially awkward to judge another person monetarily on a sliding scale based on how hot I thought they were how good the service was.

I would strongly prefer to eat somewhere where tipping was banned.

I think everyone is right that top-down change would work better, here -- but I'm glad to see someone even attempting bottom-up change, because perhaps top-down change is coming.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
single sentences wrote:
if the military got $2/hour plus tips for accurate kills we might of won the iraq war
"Thank you for killing me so efficiently. Have some dinar and the gold fillings in my teeth."
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
(Bear in mind we tip in the UK, but not as much, 10% is more the norm.)

I'd be happy if any social pressure to tip were removed, and the staff got a decent living wage - at least as much as everyone tipping 10%.

But I wouldn't want tipping to be forbidden. Sometimes I tip more than I usually do, because everything went particularly well. I'd like to just be able to tip then. And sometimes it's just easier to leave a round amount. If my bill (with normal tip) comes to 19.50 I'm not petty enough to want the 0.50. Of course sometimes I tip less when things were bad. I'd lose that ability, but I'd live with it - I don't want to have to use it.

(I've never used the nuclear option - though I've been really tempted once - of the one penny tip. Not tipping might just mean I was mean or forgetful. A one penny tip is a calculated insult.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
badge
speculative and begging for drama
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
single sentences wrote:
if the military got $2/hour plus tips for accurate kills we might of won the iraq war
We fire 300,000 rounds of ammunition for each confirmed kill in modern warfare. (My source on that is VERY sketchy, fyi!)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
badge
speculative and begging for drama
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
(Bear in mind we tip in the UK, but not as much, 10% is more the norm.)

I'd be happy if any social pressure to tip were removed, and the staff got a decent living wage - at least as much as everyone tipping 10%.

But I wouldn't want tipping to be forbidden. Sometimes I tip more than I usually do, because everything went particularly well. I'd like to just be able to tip then. And sometimes it's just easier to leave a round amount. If my bill (with normal tip) comes to 19.50 I'm not petty enough to want the 0.50. Of course sometimes I tip less when things were bad. I'd lose that ability, but I'd live with it - I don't want to have to use it.

(I've never used the nuclear option - though I've been really tempted once - of the one penny tip. Not tipping might just mean I was mean or forgetful. A one penny tip is a calculated insult.)
I've tipped two cents once. It was phenomenally bad service -- rude and slow. I think there were eight of us.
1 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Working in the service industry, I don't depend on tips, but they are always welcome. I've had some customers comment that Uber discourages tipping, that they aren't supposed to tip the passenger. Lyft, on the other hand, has tipping built right into the app. So I rarely have a Lyft passenger tip me in cash, but Uberers do. All I know for myself is, I don't expect a tip*. But whenever I get one, I am very grateful. Getting something that I wasn't expecting is always nice. To me, that's what a tip should be. The fact that a restaurant gets to build their business model on extracting more from others via tips and underpaying their waitstaff on the other end, that's the antithesis of what a tip should be.






* A byproduct of living in Utah, which is notoriously cheap.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walt
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been to countries where tipping is not part of the culture. Even in Japan, where service and professionalism are part of the culture, service was generally poor. The chance of encountering a bad waiter in a restaurant (not fast food) in the US is just about nil. And when a Japanese barkeep went above and beyond for me, how could I adequately express my thanks for his efforts?

Here in the States, I both grab a fast meal and have a leisurely meal, which is a lot more work for the waiter. Is it fair to be paid the same for easy and hard jobs? Isn't it fair to be paid more for a good job than an adequate job? Do you also object to bonuses? Should all companies pay the same dividends and appreciate at the same rate in the interests of "fairness"? It's not fairness you end up with, comrades, it's mediocrity.

But, I don't object to the experiment--free market and all that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
I have a cunning plan
Avatar
Microbadge: ASL fanMicrobadge: Amateur AstronomerMicrobadge: I am related to Monkeys!Microbadge: 'Come and see the violence inherent in the system!'Microbadge: I ride my bike everywhere!
Tall_Walt wrote:
I've been to countries where tipping is not part of the culture. Even in Japan, where service and professionalism are part of the culture, service was generally poor. The chance of encountering a bad waiter in a restaurant (not fast food) in the US is just about nil. And when a Japanese barkeep went above and beyond for me, how could I adequately express my thanks for his efforts?

Here in the States, I both grab a fast meal and have a leisurely meal, which is a lot more work for the waiter. Is it fair to be paid the same for easy and hard jobs? Isn't it fair to be paid more for a good job than an adequate job? Do you also object to bonuses? Should all companies pay the same dividends and appreciate at the same rate in the interests of "fairness"? It's not fairness you end up with, comrades, it's mediocrity.

But, I don't object to the experiment--free market and all that.
The solution is to pay the staff enough that they value their jobs and are willing to work hard to keep them, even if it means dealing with crappy customers. Right now, that incentive comes in the form of tips, but it can easily come in the form of higher wages and bonuses for good performance.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Bartosh

Sunnyvale
California
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tall_Walt wrote:
The chance of encountering a bad waiter in a restaurant (not fast food) in the US is just about nil.
Uh... I mean, it isn't like it happens all the time, but I've certainly run into plenty of mediocre and outright terrible service in midrange ($15-$25) restaurants in the US.

Inland Empire in SoCal, Bay Area in NorCal.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
badge
speculative and begging for drama
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tall_Walt wrote:
I've been to countries where tipping is not part of the culture. Even in Japan, where service and professionalism are part of the culture, service was generally poor. The chance of encountering a bad waiter in a restaurant (not fast food) in the US is just about nil. And when a Japanese barkeep went above and beyond for me, how could I adequately express my thanks for his efforts?

Here in the States, I both grab a fast meal and have a leisurely meal, which is a lot more work for the waiter. Is it fair to be paid the same for easy and hard jobs? Isn't it fair to be paid more for a good job than an adequate job? Do you also object to bonuses? Should all companies pay the same dividends and appreciate at the same rate in the interests of "fairness"? It's not fairness you end up with, comrades, it's mediocrity.

But, I don't object to the experiment--free market and all that.
Fairness? Yes, I suppose that's the goal. You're getting confused, though.

Do you get tipped in your profession?

If you do a bad job, will you get fired?

If you do a better job, will you get promoted or paid more?

Cool. That's the goal.

If you're going to sell your labor to an employer, is it ok that if that employer has a racist customer, you simply get to be paid less? Because that's the current reality, and that's illegal.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walt
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
aiabx wrote:
The solution is to pay the staff enough that they value their jobs and are willing to work hard to keep them, even if it means dealing with crappy customers. Right now, that incentive comes in the form of tips, but it can easily come in the form of higher wages and bonuses for good performance.
But, if you look at the general practices of businesses, they'll pay the lowest amount that attracts a warm body, quality be damned. Trader Joe's and Costco are the exceptions. Look at service in a fast food restaurant where there's no tipping; lousy service generally. What you'd end up with is waiters making less.

My feeling is, don't screw with a system that produces a good result.

And looking at the market for waiters, while you can't generally get promoted in a restaurant, you can move to higher level restaurants and make more. Some waiters make six figures.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
casey r lowe
United States
butte
Montana
flag msg tools
mb
Terwox wrote:
single sentences wrote:
if the military got $2/hour plus tips for accurate kills we might of won the iraq war
We fire 300,000 rounds of ammunition for each confirmed kill in modern warfare. (My source on that is VERY sketchy, fyi!)
thats what im saying: tipping = better (military) service
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank F
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
IF YOU WANT IT
badge
Please investigate a resource based economy.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not that crazy about crabs, to be honest.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   |