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Subject: Only in America rss

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Christopher Seguin
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slatersteven wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:


Thank you.

I actually don't know if it is reasonable, because I haven't thought about it long enough, or taken the time to gather all of the facts.

Do I think this boy needs to spend some time away from the "general society" in a locked-up location? Yes, absolutely. I just don't know how long. The boy is 8, after all. So I don't know if 10-12 years is "reasonable" or not. However, while he is locked up, he needs to learn some social skills, learn about laws and limits, learn rights and responsibilities, and overall figure out how to cope in society. Juvenile facilities will be better than a typical prison for that.

Now, do I think it is reasonable for the prosecutor to seek "murder" charges? No, probably not. Again, I don't think there is intent with malice to actually result in the death of the baby girl. I think he just wanted to shut her up, and didn't realize the extent of the damage that he was capable of doing.

The mom? Well, it is my understanding that she may be or has already been charged with manslaughter - essentially, she contributed to the death of the baby through gross negligence. Probably not intentionally, which is why they won't go for a murder charge against her, but manslaughter is certainly reasonable in my opinion (see, I used the word "reasonable" in that sentence ).
I think the idea of sending an 8 year old child to a juvenile detention facility for 10-12 years, for any reason, is obscene. Debating whether to charge this particular child with murder or manslaughter, in my view, is completely missing the point.

Here is a young child who clearly hasn't had a stable upbringing. He's been left in a situation which would be stressful even for the most well-adjusted 8 year old. Almost certainly, this isn't the first time he's been put in situations like this. And of course, he has done a terrible thing. I doubt he is under any illusions about that. He'll almost certainly have significant psychological problems linked to this event, to add to any he already had.

Let me suggest an alternative approach to debating whether this is murder or manslaughter, or whether he should spend 10 years or another number in confinement:

Assess him psychologically and establish whether he is actually an ongoing risk to others. Provide therapy to help with existing psychological issues, including ones related to this event. As soon as it is deemed safe, which may be immediately, place him in supportive care, possibly though adoption, with people who can provide the kind of guidance you suggest (plus maybe a bit of love as well, which is likely the thing he is missing the most). Not in confinement, in the community. If safe and possible, keep him with the rest of his siblings.

Maybe there's a young child child here whose life can be saved. How does confinement in a correctional facility, potentially for the rest of his childhood, offer any benefits to him or society compared with this approach?

And just to be clear, I don't think this is a UK/US issue. Cases like this don't happen very often, but historically we've been terrible at dealing with them as well.
But retribution!
Once again, you continue to prove that you are physically and mentally incapable of adding anything to a conversation whatsoever.

Thanks for your consistency, if nothing else.
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chrisnd wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:


Thank you.

I actually don't know if it is reasonable, because I haven't thought about it long enough, or taken the time to gather all of the facts.

Do I think this boy needs to spend some time away from the "general society" in a locked-up location? Yes, absolutely. I just don't know how long. The boy is 8, after all. So I don't know if 10-12 years is "reasonable" or not. However, while he is locked up, he needs to learn some social skills, learn about laws and limits, learn rights and responsibilities, and overall figure out how to cope in society. Juvenile facilities will be better than a typical prison for that.

Now, do I think it is reasonable for the prosecutor to seek "murder" charges? No, probably not. Again, I don't think there is intent with malice to actually result in the death of the baby girl. I think he just wanted to shut her up, and didn't realize the extent of the damage that he was capable of doing.

The mom? Well, it is my understanding that she may be or has already been charged with manslaughter - essentially, she contributed to the death of the baby through gross negligence. Probably not intentionally, which is why they won't go for a murder charge against her, but manslaughter is certainly reasonable in my opinion (see, I used the word "reasonable" in that sentence :D ).
I think the idea of sending an 8 year old child to a juvenile detention facility for 10-12 years, for any reason, is obscene. Debating whether to charge this particular child with murder or manslaughter, in my view, is completely missing the point.

Here is a young child who clearly hasn't had a stable upbringing. He's been left in a situation which would be stressful even for the most well-adjusted 8 year old. Almost certainly, this isn't the first time he's been put in situations like this. And of course, he has done a terrible thing. I doubt he is under any illusions about that. He'll almost certainly have significant psychological problems linked to this event, to add to any he already had.

Let me suggest an alternative approach to debating whether this is murder or manslaughter, or whether he should spend 10 years or another number in confinement:

Assess him psychologically and establish whether he is actually an ongoing risk to others. Provide therapy to help with existing psychological issues, including ones related to this event. As soon as it is deemed safe, which may be immediately, place him in supportive care, possibly though adoption, with people who can provide the kind of guidance you suggest (plus maybe a bit of love as well, which is likely the thing he is missing the most). Not in confinement, in the community. If safe and possible, keep him with the rest of his siblings.

Maybe there's a young child child here whose life can be saved. How does confinement in a correctional facility, potentially for the rest of his childhood, offer any benefits to him or society compared with this approach?

And just to be clear, I don't think this is a UK/US issue. Cases like this don't happen very often, but historically we've been terrible at dealing with them as well.
But retribution!
Once again, you continue to prove that you are physically and mentally incapable of adding anything to a conversation whatsoever.

Thanks for your consistency, if nothing else.
What do you call a desire to try a child for murder other than a blind desire for retribution?
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slatersteven wrote:
What do you call a desire to try a child for murder other than a blind desire for retribution?
To be fair, I think it is natural to want to separate a proven danger from society. Trying for murder is the way to get the longest separation. Once chrisnd thought about it longer, the different variables made him think twice about that initial reaction. If trying for murder meant auto-death-penalty then it would be an on obvious retribution motive.

I think the kid does need at least observation as he gets older. He may not understand what he has done now, but as he gets older he will and if someone isn't there to help him with the dawning realization, it could have profound affects on how he develops into an adult
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What do you call a desire to try a child for murder other than a blind desire for retribution?
To be fair, I think it is natural to want to separate a proven danger from society. Trying for murder is the way to get the longest separation. Once chrisnd thought about it longer, the different variables made him think twice about that initial reaction. If trying for murder meant auto-death-penalty then it would be an on obvious retribution motive.

I think the kid does need at least observation as he gets older. He may not understand what he has done now, but as he gets older he will and if someone isn't there to help him with the dawning realization, it could have profound affects on how he develops into an adult
That is what sectioning is for, not prison.

This is why I say a desire for retribution, if the desire was for the protection of society there are better ways of doing it than a murder conviction. It is (and was) just a knee jerk reaction of revulsion to an unfathomable act, not a reasoned analysis of the best way to deal with a child.
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And it seems that (in at least one respect) reason has prevailed.

http://fox21news.com/2015/11/12/da-8-year-old-accused-of-kil...

He is not going to be charged as an adult.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:


Thank you.

I actually don't know if it is reasonable, because I haven't thought about it long enough, or taken the time to gather all of the facts.

Do I think this boy needs to spend some time away from the "general society" in a locked-up location? Yes, absolutely. I just don't know how long. The boy is 8, after all. So I don't know if 10-12 years is "reasonable" or not. However, while he is locked up, he needs to learn some social skills, learn about laws and limits, learn rights and responsibilities, and overall figure out how to cope in society. Juvenile facilities will be better than a typical prison for that.

Now, do I think it is reasonable for the prosecutor to seek "murder" charges? No, probably not. Again, I don't think there is intent with malice to actually result in the death of the baby girl. I think he just wanted to shut her up, and didn't realize the extent of the damage that he was capable of doing.

The mom? Well, it is my understanding that she may be or has already been charged with manslaughter - essentially, she contributed to the death of the baby through gross negligence. Probably not intentionally, which is why they won't go for a murder charge against her, but manslaughter is certainly reasonable in my opinion (see, I used the word "reasonable" in that sentence ).
I think the idea of sending an 8 year old child to a juvenile detention facility for 10-12 years, for any reason, is obscene. Debating whether to charge this particular child with murder or manslaughter, in my view, is completely missing the point.

Here is a young child who clearly hasn't had a stable upbringing. He's been left in a situation which would be stressful even for the most well-adjusted 8 year old. Almost certainly, this isn't the first time he's been put in situations like this. And of course, he has done a terrible thing. I doubt he is under any illusions about that. He'll almost certainly have significant psychological problems linked to this event, to add to any he already had.

Let me suggest an alternative approach to debating whether this is murder or manslaughter, or whether he should spend 10 years or another number in confinement:

Assess him psychologically and establish whether he is actually an ongoing risk to others. Provide therapy to help with existing psychological issues, including ones related to this event. As soon as it is deemed safe, which may be immediately, place him in supportive care, possibly though adoption, with people who can provide the kind of guidance you suggest (plus maybe a bit of love as well, which is likely the thing he is missing the most). Not in confinement, in the community. If safe and possible, keep him with the rest of his siblings.

Maybe there's a young child child here whose life can be saved. How does confinement in a correctional facility, potentially for the rest of his childhood, offer any benefits to him or society compared with this approach?

And just to be clear, I don't think this is a UK/US issue. Cases like this don't happen very often, but historically we've been terrible at dealing with them as well.
Good points, in their entirety. Again, I hadn't determined if it was reasonable or not at the time that I first heard about it (based on the assumption that that is what will happen).

However, as different arguments for an against are brought against long-term "incarceration", I am more apt to think that ANY time spent away from general society in a facility is probably bad, and NOT reasonable. That's because I have now thought about it in a reasonable manner, and am able to form a conclusion.

Thanks for your input.
Thanks, appreciated the exchange. Next time I'll wait for you to actually express a view rather than making your opinion up for you.
Sounds good to me.

More importantly, though, what is society going to do with this young boy? Mom? Lock her up - she should have known better, and made a really, really big mistake that resulted in the death of her daughter.

But what do we do with the boy? I like your idea - foster care with someone who will take care of him, teach him well, get him adjusted, and help him cope with what happened in a manner that fits his maturity level.

Again, sad, sad, sad. I hope it turns out for the good in the long run.
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chrisnd wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:


Thank you.

I actually don't know if it is reasonable, because I haven't thought about it long enough, or taken the time to gather all of the facts.

Do I think this boy needs to spend some time away from the "general society" in a locked-up location? Yes, absolutely. I just don't know how long. The boy is 8, after all. So I don't know if 10-12 years is "reasonable" or not. However, while he is locked up, he needs to learn some social skills, learn about laws and limits, learn rights and responsibilities, and overall figure out how to cope in society. Juvenile facilities will be better than a typical prison for that.

Now, do I think it is reasonable for the prosecutor to seek "murder" charges? No, probably not. Again, I don't think there is intent with malice to actually result in the death of the baby girl. I think he just wanted to shut her up, and didn't realize the extent of the damage that he was capable of doing.

The mom? Well, it is my understanding that she may be or has already been charged with manslaughter - essentially, she contributed to the death of the baby through gross negligence. Probably not intentionally, which is why they won't go for a murder charge against her, but manslaughter is certainly reasonable in my opinion (see, I used the word "reasonable" in that sentence ).
I think the idea of sending an 8 year old child to a juvenile detention facility for 10-12 years, for any reason, is obscene. Debating whether to charge this particular child with murder or manslaughter, in my view, is completely missing the point.

Here is a young child who clearly hasn't had a stable upbringing. He's been left in a situation which would be stressful even for the most well-adjusted 8 year old. Almost certainly, this isn't the first time he's been put in situations like this. And of course, he has done a terrible thing. I doubt he is under any illusions about that. He'll almost certainly have significant psychological problems linked to this event, to add to any he already had.

Let me suggest an alternative approach to debating whether this is murder or manslaughter, or whether he should spend 10 years or another number in confinement:

Assess him psychologically and establish whether he is actually an ongoing risk to others. Provide therapy to help with existing psychological issues, including ones related to this event. As soon as it is deemed safe, which may be immediately, place him in supportive care, possibly though adoption, with people who can provide the kind of guidance you suggest (plus maybe a bit of love as well, which is likely the thing he is missing the most). Not in confinement, in the community. If safe and possible, keep him with the rest of his siblings.

Maybe there's a young child child here whose life can be saved. How does confinement in a correctional facility, potentially for the rest of his childhood, offer any benefits to him or society compared with this approach?

And just to be clear, I don't think this is a UK/US issue. Cases like this don't happen very often, but historically we've been terrible at dealing with them as well.
Good points, in their entirety. Again, I hadn't determined if it was reasonable or not at the time that I first heard about it (based on the assumption that that is what will happen).

However, as different arguments for an against are brought against long-term "incarceration", I am more apt to think that ANY time spent away from general society in a facility is probably bad, and NOT reasonable. That's because I have now thought about it in a reasonable manner, and am able to form a conclusion.

Thanks for your input.
Thanks, appreciated the exchange. Next time I'll wait for you to actually express a view rather than making your opinion up for you.
Sounds good to me.

More importantly, though, what is society going to do with this young boy? Mom? Lock her up - she should have known better, and made a really, really big mistake that resulted in the death of her daughter.

But what do we do with the boy? I like your idea - foster care with someone who will take care of him, teach him well, get him adjusted, and help him cope with what happened in a manner that fits his maturity level.

Again, sad, sad, sad. I hope it turns out for the good in the long run.
Do you really think locking her up would help all those kids?
 
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lfisher wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
AdamTracey wrote:
chrisnd wrote:


Thank you.

I actually don't know if it is reasonable, because I haven't thought about it long enough, or taken the time to gather all of the facts.

Do I think this boy needs to spend some time away from the "general society" in a locked-up location? Yes, absolutely. I just don't know how long. The boy is 8, after all. So I don't know if 10-12 years is "reasonable" or not. However, while he is locked up, he needs to learn some social skills, learn about laws and limits, learn rights and responsibilities, and overall figure out how to cope in society. Juvenile facilities will be better than a typical prison for that.

Now, do I think it is reasonable for the prosecutor to seek "murder" charges? No, probably not. Again, I don't think there is intent with malice to actually result in the death of the baby girl. I think he just wanted to shut her up, and didn't realize the extent of the damage that he was capable of doing.

The mom? Well, it is my understanding that she may be or has already been charged with manslaughter - essentially, she contributed to the death of the baby through gross negligence. Probably not intentionally, which is why they won't go for a murder charge against her, but manslaughter is certainly reasonable in my opinion (see, I used the word "reasonable" in that sentence :D ).
I think the idea of sending an 8 year old child to a juvenile detention facility for 10-12 years, for any reason, is obscene. Debating whether to charge this particular child with murder or manslaughter, in my view, is completely missing the point.

Here is a young child who clearly hasn't had a stable upbringing. He's been left in a situation which would be stressful even for the most well-adjusted 8 year old. Almost certainly, this isn't the first time he's been put in situations like this. And of course, he has done a terrible thing. I doubt he is under any illusions about that. He'll almost certainly have significant psychological problems linked to this event, to add to any he already had.

Let me suggest an alternative approach to debating whether this is murder or manslaughter, or whether he should spend 10 years or another number in confinement:

Assess him psychologically and establish whether he is actually an ongoing risk to others. Provide therapy to help with existing psychological issues, including ones related to this event. As soon as it is deemed safe, which may be immediately, place him in supportive care, possibly though adoption, with people who can provide the kind of guidance you suggest (plus maybe a bit of love as well, which is likely the thing he is missing the most). Not in confinement, in the community. If safe and possible, keep him with the rest of his siblings.

Maybe there's a young child child here whose life can be saved. How does confinement in a correctional facility, potentially for the rest of his childhood, offer any benefits to him or society compared with this approach?

And just to be clear, I don't think this is a UK/US issue. Cases like this don't happen very often, but historically we've been terrible at dealing with them as well.
Good points, in their entirety. Again, I hadn't determined if it was reasonable or not at the time that I first heard about it (based on the assumption that that is what will happen).

However, as different arguments for an against are brought against long-term "incarceration", I am more apt to think that ANY time spent away from general society in a facility is probably bad, and NOT reasonable. That's because I have now thought about it in a reasonable manner, and am able to form a conclusion.

Thanks for your input.
Thanks, appreciated the exchange. Next time I'll wait for you to actually express a view rather than making your opinion up for you.
Sounds good to me. :)

More importantly, though, what is society going to do with this young boy? Mom? Lock her up - she should have known better, and made a really, really big mistake that resulted in the death of her daughter.

But what do we do with the boy? I like your idea - foster care with someone who will take care of him, teach him well, get him adjusted, and help him cope with what happened in a manner that fits his maturity level.

Again, sad, sad, sad. I hope it turns out for the good in the long run.
Do you really think locking her up would help all those kids?
Is she guilty, she says not.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/12/alabama-mothe...
 
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lfisher wrote:


Do you really think locking her up would help all those kids?
Removing them from her care will almost certainly result in a better situation for the kids. Actually locking her up probably won't matter to the kids either way.
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