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Subject: What is wrong with this game? rss

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Jan Horinek
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The game looks gorgeous, yet it has a painful 6/10 here on BGG.
The reviews seem to be full of thrill despite the above noted 6/10.
Then DVG release a pdf file with literally tons of components to replace those from the box. That means something must have gone very wrong.

This makes me completely confused, can please someone enlighten me? It makes me a little shy to spend a fortune for it.
 
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Chris Snyder
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I'll cautiously chime in with my opinion on this. There are those who will say that there is nothing wrong with the game at all. I feel that a person's opinion on the game has a lot to do with their expectations of it. I personally felt that there were some thematic disconnects within the rules of the game. I'll just list a couple of them here.

1) You can choose to attack ANY enemy battalion in play, regardless of it's position on the operations track. So, if you pay the supply, you can swing around to the enemy breakthrough area and attack their command post.

2) The combination of campaign and objective cards could allow for other anti-historical situations. You can be overrun in Poland or you can Blitz into enemy territory on D-Day. Also, Poland is listed as an Intro level campaign, but match it with the wrong objective card and it's certainly not introductory.

3) Enemy battalions are generally aggressive and put the Germans in a defensive stance, regardless of campaign. I personally would have preferred something in Poland or France like "You have X turns to destroy Y battalions" rather than "Hurry, get the Poles and French before they overrun you!"

4) You get extra attack dice for moving towards an enemy no matter what. So, sitting still and digging in can actually be worse in some situations than charging headlong towards a defended area.

5) Machine Guns can destroy tanks at a distance. Even trucks can attack and destroy units. Yes, trucks.

6) There's no difference in many cases between attacking armored and unarmored targets; something I don't have a problem with, but others do.
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NWS Wargaming Store
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DVG attempted to try a system that many wargamers did not always agree with. Based on the feedback, and with my direct help included - especially with the considerably revised combat system, they came up with an update kit to help address many of the concerns. Note, a revised enemy unit movement chart is also in the works for the update kit.

The updates will also be applied to Sherman Leader which is presently in development.

More info about the update kit is available here,
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1419831/dvg-official-beta-v1...

Let me know if that helps.

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS

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John Paul Messerly
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Expectations. It is a light boardgame with a WW2 theme but it's not a historically accurate war simulation.

If you go into it expecting a series of WW2 themed puzzle challenges it's great. If you expect it to be an accurate simulation you will be disappointed. None of the other Leader games are super detailed simulations so I don't know why expectations were different for this one? I found some of the rules a bit strange (like how effective trucks are at destroying tanks) but I still play with the original rules because I like how fast the game plays... more complexity slows it down too much for me.

The good news is that now both versions of the game exist and are available so everyone gets what they want!
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Jan Horinek
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snyderman wrote:
5) Machine Guns can destroy tanks at a distance. Even trucks can attack and destroy units. Yes, trucks.
Chris you are in charge of my pants now. I peed myself laughing. Beware trucks.

The 6/10 has been given by just about 60 people so it really doesn't say that much, and i apologize for making it sound like it does.
Guys thank you for your explanations, i guess i need to read the rules first and compare it to the new version of them to judge.
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To Jan,

With the updated rules MGs, or any unit that does not have AP capability, cannot do any damage to AFVs (armored fighting vehicles). At most an MG can cause stress (vehicle buttons up) if your using my optional rule. Trucks have no attack capability whatsoever. The confusion was caused by the FP rating on the original counters.. that was deleted entirely in the updated components, as was any AP rating for units that could not pierce armor. Fire + move rules were also completely revised.

What I usually recommend is to play with the original rules first to get a feel for the game and then with the updated rules so you can compare the differences and possibly give any constructive feedback.


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Christopher Dean
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Jan Horinek
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Thank you Christopher, i think i am in the picture now.
 
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Chris Snyder
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mermuse wrote:
None of the other Leader games are super detailed simulations so I don't know why expectations were different for this one?
Up until this point, the Leader series was the Air Leader series, with the exception of U-boat Leader (which greatly differed, and which also suffered criticism and consequently is going into a second edition reprint). I believe many of the carried over rules from other Air Leader games to Tiger Leader were derived with modern air warfare and tactics in mind.
 
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yeeshkul wrote:
Thank you Christopher, i think i am in the picture now.
No problem.. take care friend.

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Christopher Dean
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Jan Horinek
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snyderman wrote:
U-boat Leader (which greatly differed, and which also suffered criticism and consequently is going into a second edition reprint)
I own U-Boat Leader and with the errated rules, it is really an excellent game. No components had to be changed there were just two important changes made in the Deep Dive and Silent Running maneuvers. The Second edition reprint has pretty much nothing to do with this, there is just a great demand for the game i suppose. I felt really lucky when i purchased the game secondhand.
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Rob Tyson
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Actual updated components, not a PDF file, should be provided by DVG to all the purchasers of this game. This reminds me why I really should never back a Kickstarter.
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John Bruns
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RobTys wrote:
Actual updated components, not a PDF file, should be provided by DVG to all the purchasers of this game. This reminds me why I really should never back a Kickstarter.
I strongly agree that we should be getting upgraded components not a PDF. I disagree that one shouldn't back a kickstarter. I have been involved in over 50 kickstarter projects and this is one of 2 that I have been extremely disappointed in. I expected a complete, well designed, and well tested game from a known respected company and I what I got left a very bad taste. I don't want to print a fix out, I deserve the complete game that I fronted money for.

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Hubert Switalski
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I feel like the game mechanics are wrong. This game is a direct port of Thunderbolt Apache Leader (TAL), which Im told is a great game with great components. The same mechanics are applied to ground combat with armored units and infantry. To me that is wrong and should have been slightly tweaked to account for much more different combat mechanics (aerial vs. ground combat). Even if taken as a light simulation where you manage your units, the game just feels goofy and to me at least in its current form not very interesting or fun. If you add the really poorly designed counters, misaligned terrain pieces...well, you get the idea. Not impressed at all. However, the mounted board looks great (shows the Ardennes forest, which ironically is not one of the campaigns in the game). Also, the campaigns are not linked so your forces from the early 39' campaign cannot really advance into later years. Unless, of course you implement some house rules to do so. Overall, the game fell short for me despite average expectations. I also think that while the counters and terrain pieces can be reprinted the game mechanics needs to be seriously overhauled to make this game playable and more importantly....enjoyable.

Just my two cents.
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jeff
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tal342 wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Actual updated components, not a PDF file, should be provided by DVG to all the purchasers of this game. This reminds me why I really should never back a Kickstarter.
I strongly agree that we should be getting upgraded components not a PDF. I disagree that one shouldn't back a kickstarter. I have been involved in over 50 kickstarter projects and this is one of 2 that I have been extremely disappointed in. I expected a complete, well designed, and well tested game from a known respected company and I what I got left a very bad taste. I don't want to print a fix out, I deserve the complete game that I fronted money for.

This is my issue. They should have all the backers information still on file. They should be contacting all of us to confirm our mailing addresses and ensuring us that we will receive the updated components.

Instead they leave it up to us to follow the progress of the production of the update kit and contact them for a replacement, or purchase their next product to get it in there.

This is very poor customer service and I'm more than happy to voice my dissatisfaction about it when people ask my opinion of them. They will not be getting any pre-order or Kick Starter money from my pocket. Frankly if I do actually purchase one of their products again it will most likely be in the secondary market.
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As stated in the TL update thread FAQ and update kit PDF file;

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1419831/dvg-official-beta-v1...

Quote:
Q: When will the printed edition of the update kit be available and how can I acquire it?
The printed edition of the update kit (available sometime around Q4 2015 to Q1 2016) will be made available for free (excluding shipping) from DVG and as part of the Sherman Leader game in development. It will also be available through the NWS Online Gaming Store. The PDF, which is already posted on this thread, will always be available for free download.
The PDF is a beta posted in advance of printing to allow as much constructive feedback as possible before going to print. DVG is investing a considerable sum of funds, especially for a small family business, to get the update kit printed. They are doing what they can afford to do at their cost.

On my end I will be stocking a good number of the printed update kits to toss in with any orders placed with my store to help save on shipping costs as much as possible.

Hopefully the above answers some questions.

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS
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Gerald Reston
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NWS Online Store wrote:
As stated in the TL update thread FAQ and update kit PDF file;

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1419831/dvg-official-beta-v1...

Quote:
Q: When will the printed edition of the update kit be available and how can I acquire it?
The printed edition of the update kit (available sometime around Q4 2015 to Q1 2016) will be made available for free (excluding shipping) from DVG and as part of the Sherman Leader game in development. It will also be available through the NWS Online Gaming Store. The PDF, which is already posted on this thread, will always be available for free download.
The PDF is a beta posted in advance of printing to allow as much constructive feedback as possible before going to print. DVG is investing a considerable sum of funds, especially for a small family business, to get the update kit printed. They are doing what they can afford to do at their cost.

On my end I will be stocking a good number of the printed update kits to toss in with any orders placed with my store to help save on shipping costs as much as possible.

Hopefully the above answers some questions.

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS
That's why I'm holding off on getting Tiger Leader - 'Til this champion update gets printed.

Still waiting for an answer to my question about the hex sizes while we're on this topic, please.
 
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Vance Strickland
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Back of the box says each hex is 2.5" across. Each piece has 4 hexes connected together.
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Rob Tyson
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NWS Online Store wrote:

Hopefully the above answers some questions.
Thanks for the reply. It is greatly appreciated.
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Gerald Reston
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Barthheart wrote:
Back of the box says each hex is 2.5" across. Each piece has 4 hexes connected together.
Thanks! All I can do now is wait 'til the update comes 'round for sale on the DVG website.
 
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To RT and GR.. no problem, about the "hex size" - sorry missed that, thanks for helping each other out on that one.

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Christopher Dean
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Jeff Fike
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I've backed a lot of Kickstarter games and tiger leader is a complete game. To complain about that relative to other Kickstarter disasters, a person is quite lucky with their kick starters.

I get the armor piercing mechanic. I get why you want it but allow me to point out something.

Field commander Rommel - infantry take out tanks there. No complaints. I don't see much difference. In this one, it is a truck or mg nest. I get it, I really do. But there are broken games much more broken than this.
 
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Better is the antithesis of good enough...

While I enjoy the Leader Games I feel TL may have been prematurely rushed to market... The fact that DVG has been very accommodating to suggested fixes(?) and will be printing said fixes is very telling.

Still a fun game.
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Jeff Fike
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StevenE wrote:
Better is the antithesis of good enough...

While I enjoy the Leader Games I feel TL may have been prematurely rushed to market... The fact that DVG has been very accommodating to suggested fixes(?) and will be printing said fixes is very telling.

Still a fun game.
Telling of what? That it was a poor game? Or that they listen? I sure hope you were referring to the latter.

And I agree - it is still a fun game. The new rules do make it "more fun", in my opinion, so I am grateful to those of you who asked for them and the designers for putting them in. But this isn't a broken kickstarter, nor is it a broken game. 2nd edition will just simply be better than the 1st.
 
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StevenE wrote:
... I feel TL may have been prematurely rushed to market...
This is the problem. The game was obviously not well tested. Pretty much right after it released issues were found that needed to be fixed.

The fact that they fixed the game and are printing a patch is great... but they are putting the burden on the consumer to get the update and not themselves is what makes them have bad customer service.

They will never get any money from me again. I'll gladly give it to GMT instead.

Sometimes as a company you have to bite the bullet and eat the expense in order to make right. This gesture speaks massive volumes in this industry, where word of mouth about your products is you biggest advertising. Having good will is a strong asset. They are screwing that up big time.

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Chris Snyder
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I don't know the details about how much playtesting was done or how involved with each other were the designer, publisher, developer, etc. But at some point the question must have been asked "Is this game ready to go?" and the answer was "Yes." If you think the game was rushed, then you probably blame the person who said "Yes" or the person who didn't ensure that that answer was correct.
 
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