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Subject: Simultanous death? rss

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Jo Bartok
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A): Joe attacks, player Tim cannot block. Attacking damage would kill Tim. Tim can - during Joes attack - direct damage kill Joe. Who wins/loses?
B): Tim and Joe both at 2. Event deals 2 to all. Who wins/loses?
 
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Justin Jones
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My guess would be

A) Tim. Events resolve immediately.

B) Double KO???
 
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ionas wrote:
A): Joe attacks, player Tim cannot block. Attacking damage would kill Tim. Tim can - during Joes attack - direct damage kill Joe. Who wins/loses?
Tim plays an event during the combat to deal damage to Joe, reducing Joe to zero life. Joe instantly loses, Tim wins.

ionas wrote:
B): Tim and Joe both at 2. Event deals 2 to all. Who wins/loses?
You mean this one?


Depends who played it. Let's say it's Tim. IMO, Tim plays Flash Fire, proceeds to put 2 damage on each champion and each player, order of his choice. If Tim has any sense he'll put 2 damage on Joe (game instantly ends, Tim wins) before he puts 2 damage on himself.

Scratch that. Fire burns, everyone dies - it's a draw.
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Ondřej Placzek
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Tim wins. After the attackers are declared an Event window gives the defending player opportunity to play events. Those happen immediately, thus killing Joe before the attack gets resolved.
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Marco Schaub
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greylag wrote:
Depends who played it. Let's say it's Tim. IMO, Tim plays Flash Fire, proceeds to put 2 damage on each champion and each player, order of his choice. If Tim has any sense he'll put 2 damage on Joe (game instantly ends, Tim wins) before he puts 2 damage on himself.
I don't think the game can end in the middle of the resolution of a single effect. Also, I don't think there's an order for the damage to be dealt, it's simultaneous.

I'd say that's a tie.

It would also be a tie if one player is at 1 and one at 2, putting them at -1 and 0, respectively.
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Chris G
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Tim wins. The event plays out immediately and Joe dies before the attack phase happens. Declare attackers, play event cards - resolve event cards - Joe dies before you resolve the attack phase.
 
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HenningK
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A) Tim wins. The game checks before the combat damage is dealt.

B) It's a draw. Every champion and player takes 2 damage at the same time, then the game checks and sees that both players are dead.
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Dom Hiob
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Just to make sure I get things right. In this scenario

Joe has 3 hp, Tim has 2. It's Tim's turn. Tim attacks with a 4/4 breakthrough Wurm Hatchling. Joe blocks with a 1/1 Necromancer Apprentice. Joe also has Drinker of Blood out.

In this scenario, Tim will win, because at the end of the damage step, Joe has 0 hp left? So Drinker of Blood won't trigger anymore by Wurm Hatchling's being broken (which would give Joe 2 hp and cost Tim 2 hp, killing him). Right?
 
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DomHiob wrote:
Just to make sure I get things right. In this scenario

Joe has 3 hp, Tim has 2. It's Tim's turn. Tim attacks with a 4/4 breakthrough Wurm Hatchling. Joe blocks with a 1/1 Necromancer Apprentice. Joe also has Drinker of Blood out.

In this scenario, Tim will win, because at the end of the damage step, Joe has 0 hp left? So Drinker of Blood won't trigger anymore by Wurm Hatchling's being broken (which would give Joe 2 hp and cost Tim 2 hp, killing him). Right?
Yup! Tim wins. The fact that Joe would win later on doesn't change the fact that Tim has won now. Triggers don't happen until "you could next play a card" - but, as they say, dead folks don't play cards.
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Ian Taylor
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You guys are making my job easier!

Simultaneous death is weird, but it happens. Draws are possible in tournament play.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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It does appear that most of these types of questions can be answered with a correct interpretation of the rules. In most cases it appears people are over complicating a set of rules that are fairly clear.

This is not to say people aren't trying to understand the rules, simply that sometimes the answer is a matter of breaking down the question and seeing how each component resolves and then checking the rules to see what happens.

The fact that these types of questions come up fairly frequently isn't a flaw of the game or rules, but rather only serves to illustrate the inherent complexity and depth of the game. Something that is quite subtle until you really start playing. Once you understand these subtleties one can use them to great effect. ...Again, similar to Magic. Which is a good thing in my book.
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Also, "Simultaneous Death" seems like a good name for a game. Or a death metal band. The title of this thread was awesome.



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Jo Bartok
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First of all, A) and B) are two DIFFERENT questions regarding a very similar problem. They are in no way directly linked.

kryyst wrote:
Tim wins. The event plays out immediately and Joe dies before the attack phase happens. Declare attackers, play event cards - resolve event cards - Joe dies before you resolve the attack phase.
It is true that the damage done in A) is dealt before combat phase damage calculation is done. The question still remains if the attack goes through. This has two implications
X) in a 2 player game one wins, the other does not if combat is canceled cause the attacking player died despite that he declared attackers
Y) in a 3+ player game this has major impacts as if the attack goes through it does impact the game not only in relation to draw vs win but also in relation to how the game continues from there on (e.g. if the player that had died through the attack but "first" killed his attacking opponent survives cause the attack is called of).

I think its not clear from the rules. Is it?

For B) I am still not 100% sure if the damage happens "immediately" or if there is any kind of timing window (for instance blood drinker would trigger of each death, but if things really happen at the very SAME moment in time, then it could not trigger twice at the very same moment one "could" argue). I am strongly in fav of ruling it a draw though.
 
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Jo Bartok
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Maddest Hatter wrote:
Also, "Simultaneous Death" seems like a good name for a game. Or a death metal band. The title of this thread was awesome.



New Mechanic: Simultaneous Death Selection.
 
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Jo Bartok
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IanWWG wrote:
You guys are making my job easier!

Simultaneous death is weird, but it happens. Draws are possible in tournament play.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
Could you try to answer, officially, what happens.
Think about a 3+ player game again. Would the attack be called of?

p.s.: and could you setup a FAQ especially with those questions answered on ugly-facebook (like the Pegasus question I did post did not get answered here officially but only on FB which I have no access to).
 
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ionas wrote:
IanWWG wrote:
You guys are making my job easier!

Simultaneous death is weird, but it happens. Draws are possible in tournament play.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
Could you try to answer, officially, what happens.
Think about a 3+ player game again. Would the attack be called of?

p.s.: and could you setup a FAQ especially with those questions answered on ugly-facebook (like the Pegasus question I did post did not get answered here officially but only on FB which I have no access to).
There is already a FAQ, ionas, in the specific card rulings document. It's updated periodically. It doesn't specifically exclude "rulings from Facebook" - it's a periodically collated list of rulings based on WW's sense of what issues people are finding confusing.
 
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ionas wrote:
The question still remains if the attack goes through... I think its not clear from the rules. Is it?
I find it pretty clear. The multiplayer rules say:

Quote:
When a player is eliminated from the game, all cards that started in their deck also leave the game.
Cards which aren't in the game can't cause damage, so the attack doesn't go through.
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Jo Bartok
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And who says the cards are not in the game?
The attack is declared already.
The cards are already on the table.

This is all I found in the rules:
Quote:
Winning and Losing
If your health is 0 or less, you lose the game. If you eliminate all of your opponents, you win the game. You also win the game if you would draw a card but have no cards left in your deck.
p.s.: I'd also welcome a ruling where the event kill removes the whole player from the game and cancels the attack phases. But I don't see it anywhere in the rules (blind?).
 
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The multiplayer rules, in the rule book, state that when a player is eliminated from the game, all cards that started in their deck also leave the game. So the cards are not in the game, so they can't do damage.
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Jo Bartok
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Is this the paragraph you are referring to?
Quote:
When a player is eliminated from the game, all cards that started in their deck also leave the game.
In case it is, it is about something else, e.g. cards you "brought into the game" that then can't for instance be "Final Task'ed" anymore.
It still does not say "when" the elimination actually happens. Just at that given moment or "after" the battle phase is over.

Aside that, well. That passage is not in the general rules (2 player) but multiplayer rules.

Don't get me wrong, I am on your side in ruling it this way, but it is not clear from the rules as written, still.
 
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I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems clear to me that as soon as someone loses, their cards vanish. Not that they vanish at some time later on but that they are gone, right away, just like everything in Epic (apart from triggers) happens right away.

But there could still be this situation:

1. Players A, B and C are in a 3-player game.
2. Player A plays Champion X
3. Player B takes control of Champion X
4. B attacks A, declaring Champion X as one of the attackers
5. A eliminates B during the battle with a direct damage event
6. Q: Does Champion X remain in the game, since it didn't start in Champion B's deck, and hence does it stay on to do damage to A in that combat, potentially benefiting player C?

I would say that it remains, but does no damage, because, "The player who controls a champion decides where it deals its damage". This player has been eliminated from the game so cannot decide to do damage to anyone.
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Dom Hiob
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ionas wrote:
Aside that, well. That passage is not in the general rules (2 player) but multiplayer rules.
You're getting me confused now. What would I even want with that passage in 2-player rules? I thought this discussion was specifically about multiplayer elimination... so it'd make sense to include the passage cited in the multiplayer rules only.

Also, I guess elimination should take place before the next time event cards could be played (as is win/loss in 2-player).

Then again, I may not understand what this is all about...

edit: no such word as "eliminination"
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Matthew Hodson
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Probably need a rule that all champions controlled by a player who's cards have been removed from the game are banished.
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Dom Hiob
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greylag wrote:
I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems clear to me that as soon as someone loses, their cards vanish. Not that they vanish at some time later on but that they are gone, right away, just like everything in Epic (apart from triggers) happens right away.

But there could still be this situation:

1. Players A, B and C are in a 3-player game.
2. Player A plays Champion X
3. Player B takes control of Champion X
4. B attacks A, declaring Champion X as one of the attackers
5. A eliminates B during the battle with a direct damage event
6. Q: Does Champion X remain in the game, since it didn't start in Champion B's deck, and hence does it stay on to do damage to A in that combat, potentially benefiting player C?

I would say that it remains, but does no damage, because, "The player who controls a champion decides where it deals its damage". This player has been eliminated from the game so cannot decide to do damage to anyone.
Good example. What happens with the champion after that combat, though? Will it remain under "control" of a player (B) that's been eliminated (feels decidedly strange)? Maybe some kind of official ruling for this scenario would be in place (since the rules apparently really don't cover it)
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Jo Bartok
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The rule missing is:

- In case a player dies, his whole hand as well as deck and discard piles are removed from the game immediately.
- Also any cards he controls (but does not own) are removed from the game immediately.
- Any cards removed this way do not trigger effects (but may strip 3rd party powers/effects).
- Any cards that he owns (but does not control) are also removed from the game onces those cards get banished, discarded or removed in other ways (what about Teleport? What about Blood Drinker and discard. Would a Turn'ed Blood Drinker still trigger on a dead 3rd party owned card being broken, I'd say yes, but clear rules should reflect that)

Something... like that, less verbose and more precise. Official statement.
This would hopefully clear your case above as well.
 
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