Brian Nguyen
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Pretty much doing your future actions that will hurt that person the most instead of going for your own maximum point gain. (Assume that person is in the running for first place still)
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tekshi wrote:
Pretty much doing your future actions that will hurt that person the most instead of going for your own maximum point gain. (Assume that person is in the running for first place still)
If things are more ameri-trashy, then sure. Otherwise, I've seen folks try to argue that give somebody else negative points, or denying them points still counts as points for yourself.
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Andrew Bartosh

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It depends 100% on the group you're playing with.

You're not going to get a consensus on this forum on this point.
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Larry L
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AndrewRogue wrote:
It depends 100% on the group you're playing with.

You're not going to get a consensus on this forum on this point.
This is the truth.

So, keeping that in mind, for me, I prefer groups where this is perfectly acceptable play.
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Mark Nicosia
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What else are you supposed to do?

Pete (pays back)
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Kelly Bass
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If your answer is no, remind me to screw you over near the beginning of every game we play.
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Sean Conroy
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If you aren't going to win, try to decide who does.
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No, always go for best placement and victory points. Don't purposely hurt someone if it doesn't benefit yourself. It is not the other persons fault that you left yourself so prone or played so poorly that you are no longer a contender. If there are equally beneficial moves and one moves hurts that person then go for it.
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Jeff Warrender
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The thing about petty diplomacy is that it's pretty darn fun and pretty darn satisfying. As George Bailey said, "You made just one mistake, Mr. Potter, you double crossed me and you left me alive!"
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J C Lawrence
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tekshi wrote:
Pretty much doing your future actions that will hurt that person the most instead of going for your own maximum point gain. (Assume that person is in the running for first place still)
No, not ever. As at any other time, you're limited to only those things which (reasonably) move you closer to winning.
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Samo Oleami
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Well, payback is a way to win. In the next game. Showed them not to mess with me. (There's no game like the metagame).
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sgosaric wrote:
Well, payback is a way to win. In the next game. Showed them not to mess with me. (There's no game like the metagame).
I think it has quite the opposite effect. I believe they are least likely to help the person out that has king-made(word?) in future games.

There is no telling that the king-maker will be able to king-make like the previous game so why would they still not make their best move even if it hurts the king-maker?

Also, king-making two games in row is a good way of pushing people away from wanting to play games with you.

I understand some groups are all about seeking revenge, etc. To me a games objective is to get the best placement. Even if I get behind or get knocked out, I want to try my best to place well. I want to get out of the way so that the people that are doing well can compete and I can learn off of their play.
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Gregg Saruwatari
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It isn't your fault the game allows kingmaking. If people don't like it, they should play a game that minimizes kingmaking like Race for the Galaxy.
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sgosaric wrote:
Well, payback is a way to win. In the next game. Showed them not to mess with me. (There's no game like the metagame).
Yeah, no. There's only this game. No future.
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Samo Oleami
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clearclaw wrote:
sgosaric wrote:
Well, payback is a way to win. In the next game. Showed them not to mess with me. (There's no game like the metagame).
Yeah, no. There's only this game. No future.
Hey, I'll repeat the move as often as it takes. cool

It took Pavlov some time with his dog as well.
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Will

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Eric Flood
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sgosaric wrote:
Well, payback is a way to win. In the next game. Showed them not to mess with me. (There's no game like the metagame).
There wouldn't be a next game, I would refuse the opportunity. I don't want to play with a player who behaves in that immature fashion.
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Larry L
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sgosaric wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
sgosaric wrote:
Well, payback is a way to win. In the next game. Showed them not to mess with me. (There's no game like the metagame).
Yeah, no. There's only this game. No future.
Hey, I'll repeat the move as often as it takes. cool

It took Pavlov some time with his dog as well.
I've said this before, but I would subscribe to a Samo/J.C. cowritten gaming blog in a second.
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Hunter Birckhead
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Depends on the game. Is it thematic for a minor power to screw someone over for position? It certainly falls into the realm of human nature to deny someone else through jealousy of resources and power. Did the way you king-made someone make sense or does it fall totally outside the theme and point of the game. (Sinking your own business to deny someone associated points). Too many variables to answer your question as stated I think. Kingmaking is part and parcel of some games and anathema to others.
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T. Nomad
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Kingmaking's a myth. In any game worth playing, far too many moves and variables lead up to the final round to say the actions therein determined the winner.
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Many of you don't actually seem to be talking about kingmaking at all. For me, attacking the runaway leader (directly or indirectly, by denying them resources, etc.) is very valid whether they've messed you up earlier in the game or not.

Harder to justify in gameplay terms, and more frustrating for other players, is when you expend all your energies knocking a 3rd-placed player down to 4th, for example, because they attacked you earlier on. I never really backstab other players, so am not a target of this. Indeed, I've sometimes even benefitted as a leader who gets to ramp up my score while some of the others squabble, but I think it's a bit ridiculous.

I really dislike actual kingmaking, where someone goes all out to see that a different player wins, especially when this involves things like trading the potential 'king' resources at giveaway rates, a player moving into positions that hurt their own chances, letting the 'king' invade them with no resistance, etc. If someone did this once, I would think hard about whether to play with them again. If twice, I would do all I could to keep away from them.
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Ben Draper
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tommynomad wrote:
Kingmaking's a myth. In any game worth playing, far too many moves and variables lead up to the final round to say the actions therein determined the winner.
You misunderstand the term.
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Nicholas Palmer
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Being vindictive is one thing, but if at the end of the game, there are only 2 people left in the running to win, and one of them knocked me out of the running earlier, I know which of the two I will be targeting.

Part of winning a game is making sure that anyone you make an enemy of, cannot hurt you enough to knock you out. If they take you out of first place, it was your fault for not crushing them completely or leaving yourself open.
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Ben Draper
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Koldfoot wrote:
BennyD wrote:
tommynomad wrote:
Kingmaking's a myth. In any game worth playing, far too many moves and variables lead up to the final round to say the actions therein determined the winner.
You misunderstand the term.
You misunderstand the "any game worth playing" disclaimer.

He and I don't see eye to eye on much, but don't accuse him of misunderstanding the terminology. His statement is correct.
For any common usage of the term "Kingmaker", no his statement is not correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingmaker_scenario

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