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Mage Knight Board Game: Shades of Tezla Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Laying out all tiles rss

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rick haroutunian
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I was watching a play through of this expansion on YouTube and the individual playing had all of the tiles laid out turned face down (after initial set up of 3 revealed tiles). They were done in the correct order (countryside tiles followed by core tiles). However, would that not make the game easier? Now you could technically bypass some of the countryside tiles and go straight to he core tiles to achieve your goal for the scenario.

Let me know if I am missing something here.
 
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Jeremy Santiago
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Sounds like you're speaking of Ricky Royal's playthrough of the Lost Legions expansion, where he plays the scenario with Volkare. This is a variant of the board setup for this specific scenario. Volkare marches towards the portal entrance, meanwhile you are playing the game as usual. You have to "power up" as fast as you can, and defeat his army before he reaches the portal. It's awesome and you should try it our if you haven't! It's really cool to see him make his way towards you. An awesome timing mechanism.
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Ben Kyo
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There are a couple of scenarios that are set up with face-down tiles. Conquer and Hold from the base game and Volkare's Quest from Lost Legion are the only two that come to mind right now though. None of the scenarios from Shades of Tezla do this.

It is entirely possible the video was wrong - lots of video playthroughs make mistakes, based on my experience of rules questions in these forums from people making mistakes based on videos they've watched.
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Gabriel Honore
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Concerning the difficulty, I don't think this setup make the game easier.
If you have core tiles revealed, then you have access to gold units, and that makes a huge difference, in my opinion, especially if you're low level.
Once I was playing a custom scenario with vassal, and I cruised trough the game like never before. Toward the end of the game, I realized that was because I had recruited gold units on first or second round, when they should not have been available.
 
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Ben Kyo
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nomrefuse wrote:
Once I was playing a custom scenario with vassal, and I cruised trough the game like never before. Toward the end of the game, I realized that was because I had recruited gold units on first or second round, when they should not have been available.
Did your custom scenario require flipping core tiles during setup? That would trigger elite units appearing in the offer. Would a button to reset the unit offer to only deal regular units be a useful addition to the module for you? It would be easy to implement, but is not something I ever considered as I have never played unofficial scenarios.
 
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Bart Keys
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rickjunyor wrote:
Let me know if I am missing something here.
I think the mission you are looking at is likely to be a Volkare one, most likely Volkare's quest. (When looking at the board layout in the mission section of the rules the tiles are shown as brown and green.)

There would be 2 interpretations of this, which would be:
1. That the brown tiles are in set locations.
2. That the city location is set, and that map must match the shape shown, but that the core tiles still need to meet the standard exploration rules, ie run the green tiles all out first. (though with some work you can be in a position to reveal the city without exhausting the green stack. It's never occurred in our games but if it did I suspect we would force the green stack to be exhausted before you could reveal the city.)

I play 2. (Edit: because of a house variant, which is similar to this senario)

Remember that exploring tiles have to meed certain rules.
Green, the tile you are exploring from must be connected to 2 revealed tiles.
Brown, the tile you are exploring too must be connected to 2 revealed tiles.
Brown tiles can only be drawn once the green stack is depleted. (edit: though in the VQ scenario that might not be the case.)



 
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Ben Kyo
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Bart_aus wrote:
rickjunyor wrote:
Let me know if I am missing something here.
I think the mission you are looking at is likely to be a Volkare one, most likely Volkare's quest. (When looking at the board layout in the mission section of the rules the tiles are shown as brown and green.)

There would be 2 interpretations of this, which would be:
1. That the brown tiles are in set locations.
2. That the city location is set, and that map must match the shape shown, but that the core tiles still need to meet the standard exploration rules, ie run the green tiles all out first. (though with some work you can be in a position to reveal the city without exhausting the green stack. It's never occurred in our games but if it did I suspect we would force the green stack to be exhausted before you could reveal the city.)

I play 2.
Why? It seems clear from the scenario description that 1 is correct for the Conquer and Hold and Volkare's Quest scenarios. You lay out all the necessary tiles and the only restriction on exploring them is the standard one of paying 2 move when adjacent. Requiring someone to cross the map from one side to the other to place a last green tile seems very restrictive.
 
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Gabriel Honore
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Bart_aus wrote:
I think the mission you are looking at is likely to be a Volkare one, most likely Volkare's quest. (When looking at the board layout in the mission section of the rules the tiles are shown as brown and green.)
The second interpretation you make never occured to me ! That must make indeed the scenario harder. I wonder how you fare playing like this ?

Benkyo wrote:
Did your custom scenario require flipping core tiles during setup? That would trigger elite units appearing in the offer. Would a button to reset the unit offer to only deal regular units be a useful addition to the module for you? It would be easy to implement, but is not something I ever considered as I have never played unofficial scenarios.
Yes for scenario setup. A button would help sometimes. But some custom scenarios require to reveal core tiles, and elite units are triggered by other conditions.
I made the mistake when I was a more newish player.
If it is really a small update, why I wouldn't bother you to make a new version just for that. Great job by the way !
 
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Ben Kyo
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From the base rules for Conquer and Hold:
Quote:
Map Shape: Predefined.
See the picture. Use the
B side of the starting
tile, three revealed
Countryside tiles, and
predefined positions
where another 2
Countryside and 4 Core
tiles can be revealed (you
may put them there, face
down, when setting up the game).
The Lost Legion scenarios aren't as prescriptive, but the following description for Volkare's Quest does say "the tiles are face down", which implies the same kind of set up as for Conquer and Hold, i.e., the core tile positions are pre-set.
Quote:
Map Shape: Predefined, with Volkare’s camp at the opposite side (see the picture). The tiles are face down, except for
Volkare’s camp, the portal tile, and the three adjacent tiles.
 
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Ben Kyo
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nomrefuse wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Did your custom scenario require flipping core tiles during setup? That would trigger elite units appearing in the offer. Would a button to reset the unit offer to only deal regular units be a useful addition to the module for you? It would be easy to implement, but is not something I ever considered as I have never played unofficial scenarios.
Yes for scenario setup. A button would help sometimes. But some custom scenarios require to reveal core tiles, and elite units are triggered by other conditions.
I made the mistake when I was a more newish player.
If it is really a small update, why I wouldn't bother you to make a new version just for that. Great job by the way !
Thanks. I think I will change the interface though - the question is whether to have a reset button, or a pop-up Yes/No choice to ask the player if they want elite units in the offer after flipping a core tile. I think the latter would be better, but would add an extra click or two for people playing standard scenarios. Only once per game if you select Yes, so maybe acceptable.
 
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Benkyo wrote:
Why? It seems clear from the scenario description that 1 is correct for the Conquer and Hold and Volkare's Quest scenarios. You lay out all the necessary tiles and the only restriction on exploring them is the standard one of paying 2 move when adjacent. Requiring someone to cross the map from one side to the other to place a last green tile seems very restrictive.
That's an interesting question. I read this post and saw a question that I did not think anyone had addressed, so I addressed the 2 ways you could look at it. (I think that the normal way to play is with the brown tiles in set locations. It's how I've played it here.)

I think there are several reasons, we started playing it differently.

1. In volkare's quest it's relatively easy for 1 player to race for the brown tile reveal, (If explore restriction rules are not enforced.) which sucked in our opinion, made it too easy, leading to:
2. (seemingly unrelated) We were able to control the city placement in Volkare's return too easily and to volkares detriment too often. Leading to:
3. We stopped playing Volkare's quest/return and started a variant of our own. (Which probably changed the way I thought about "predefined" maps.)

So what is this Variant?
1. Use the Map layout in Volkare's quest. (swapping Volkare's camp for a green tile.)
2. All green tiles(countryside) must be explored before brown tiles(core) may be flipped. (even though the map shape is known.)
3. Volkare starts off board. (first movement draw, move him to the portal, players may move on to the board past volkare if he is standing on the portal before they enter the map. Volkare wastes attack cards drawn while off the map. Players standing on the portal risk volkares wrath if he moves. Yes Volkare can recruit from off-board)
4. Volkare uses the Quest movement card and rules.(reverse it so his travelling away from the portal, ie: towards the city)
5. Use the recruit, city level, volkare level, and wound amount rules for Volkare from Volkare's return.

6. Race Volkare to the random city, (it's not revealed until you explore the tile) you must conquer it, and then defend it from Volkare. (actually you must defeat volkare, there's no need to take the city if you don't want to, but we always do.)

I would guess that is why I think there could be two ways to reveal the map tiles in volkare's quest.

Addendum: Conquer and hold is a little more specific about tile placement, it refers to predefined green/brown tiles, not just a predefined map. Volkare's quest is not quite as specific, but it does seems likely that is what is meant there as well.


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nomrefuse wrote:
The second interpretation you make never occured to me ! That must make indeed the scenario harder. I wonder how you fare playing like this ?
I actually don't recall now. I could not say with absolute certainty how we revealed core tiles in my last offline game of VQ. I strongly suspect it was via the map exploration rules, but...

We mainly play our variant now, Volkare wins more than he did in the other two scenarios, which was never.

 
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Ben Kyo
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Ah OK. I didn't realise you were describing a house rule. The way you phrased it: "There would be 2 interpretations of this, which would be ...", I thought you were referring to a perceived ambiguity in the rules, and defining both "interpretations" as being equally correct.

This matters to me, as it could define how the Vassal module sets up scenarios. As long as there is only one official way to do it, and there is a consensus on that, it makes my life easier.
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Hmm, I do think there is some ambiguity in the way it's written in VQ, CaH is more specific..

But I believe what was meant in the scenario setup is that brown tiles in VQ are placed as shown in the diagram.

The initial poster asked a really good question, and I did not think anyone addressed it, I was not trying to suggest that my way of revealing tiles was correct.. ( and it's certainly coloured by the way our house variant plays... which I forgot to take into account, or mention. Actually I'll edit that into my initial post.. )

 
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