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Subject: Clarification on interpreting Player Order priority rss

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Matthew M
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Can someone walk me through how to determine which Player Order rule to use? I am 99% confident my understanding is incorrect.

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Stephen Rochelle
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The lowest (roman numeral) turn order priority of the three modules (TOP I, TOP II, TOP III) selected.

For instance, in 123, it's IV Clockwise, because that's what all three modules are. In 132, however, it's II Round-Based (from 3.II), because that's higher priority / lower number than the other modules' IV.

To give an example with more conflict, take 731: here it's I Round-Based (from 7.I), trumping II Round-based (3.II) and IV Clockwise (1.III). Both 7.I and 3.II have "Phase 1 Player Order" instructions on the right-hand page, but you only use those instructions on 7.I because it's the relevant priority.
 
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Matthew M
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My issue is that if they are all tied the rules seem to suggest to use what is in TOP I. So how would TOP II turn order "IV Clockwise (capitals in reverse player order)" ever come up?

There are no TOP I priorities lower than IV for turn order - so at best a different TOP II priority IV rule would tie and be trumped by what TOP I says.

 
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Stephen Rochelle
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Hmm... I'd go with "more specific trumps less-specific". 213 is an example of what you're looking at (2.I is vanilla IV; 1.II is "IV (capitals in reverse player order)". It looks like most (all?) of the vanilla IV options also default to common-capital maps, while the "reverse player order" IV options specify higher-priority separate-capital maps -- and separate capitals are when you care about selection order.
 
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Matthew M
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The rules seem to indicate that the Player Order chosen by Priority determines the order of placing capitals. So it would be in normal player order unless the top priority player order specifies otherwise.

On one hand it would make sense for TOP I to determine that, as it considers how the game is won. But if tied priority defaults to the highest module position then it raises the question of why bother having any Priority IV turn order options at all in TOP II or TOP III as the TOP I priority would always trump it.
 
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Douglas S
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Good question
 
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Alex Churchill
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If the intent were "More specific trumps less specific", I think that could be more simply expressed by changing every "IV: Clockwise" that has no specific capitals order into "V: Clockwise". So every "more specific" capital rule becomes a IV and all the "less specific" ones become V.

Since that's not what they did, I think we have to use the specified tie-breaker: TOP I beats TOP II.
 
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Henning Kröpke
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Hi Matthew,

this sounds like a confusion of the two key words TOP and priority.

The order of the three chosen modules on slots TOP I, TOP II and TOP III only determines, which module is responsible for the VP & game end (TOP I), which is responsible for income (TOP II) and which adds some flavor (TOP III).

The correct map, the player order and the starting money are determined by priority of the Roman numbers in the grey tabs on top of the left pages.

The lower the Roman number of a tab, the more important it is in determining the correct option.

So some examples:
World 123 is played on map 3 (priority III). Player order is clockwise player order (priority IV). The players choose the capitals in reverse player order, and must choose cities offering different goods. Starting money is $60 for each player (priority V) PLUS $20, as the third module always gives each player $20 on TOP III.

World 213 follows the exact same rules, as the priorities of module "Transport" on TOP II are higher and trump the other modules.

Ok?

Best regards,

Henning
(2F-Spiele)
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Jack Spirio
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This applies to money priority VI or map priority V for TOP.III too, they will never ever say anything.
I think they just gave everywhere a priority, instead of just nothing, just to not confuse people, why there sometimes is one and sometimes not
 
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Matthew M
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Henning wrote:
Hi Matthew,

this sounds like a confusion of the two key words TOP and priority.

The order of the three chosen modules on slots TOP I, TOP II and TOP III only determines, which module is responsible for the VP & game end (TOP I), which is responsible for income (TOP II) and which adds some flavor (TOP III).

The correct map, the player order and the starting money are determined by priority of the Roman numbers in the grey tabs on top of the left pages.

The lower the Roman number of a tab, the more important it is in determining the correct option.

So some examples:
World 123 is played on map 3 (priority III). Player order is clockwise player order (priority IV). The players choose the capitals in reverse player order, and must choose cities offering different goods. Starting money is $60 for each player (priority V) PLUS $20, as the third module always gives each player $20 on TOP III.

World 213 follows the exact same rules, as the priorities of module "Transport" on TOP II are higher and trump the other modules.

Ok?

Best regards,

Henning
(2F-Spiele)
Hi Henning!

So far all of that is all as I understand it.

My question is in regards to what happens when priorities are tied. For example, if all the priorities are IV, which IV do you go with?

My understanding is that the rules say to go with TOP I if the priorities are tied. But if that is the case then a priority IV turn order rule in TOP II or TOP III would never take effect. Is that correct?

Put another way - can you provide a world example of x7x where the turn order rule of 7.2 is the one that takes effect?
 
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Henning Kröpke
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Octavian wrote:
My question is in regards to what happens when priorities are tied. For example, if all the priorities are IV, which IV do you go with?

My understanding is that the rules say to go with TOP I if the priorities are tied. But if that is the case then a priority IV turn order rule in TOP II or TOP III would never take effect. Is that correct?

Put another way - can you provide a world example of x7x where the turn order rule of 7.2 is the one that takes effect?
Ok, I see the problem:

The decision for the same capital for all players, or separate capitals for each player is determined by the demanded map.

All worlds played on maps 1, 2 or 3 have different capitals for the players, maps 4 and 5 always let all players begin on the same capital.

If the players need to choose different capitals, they must follow certain demands, which capital they may choose, which always are mentioned in the tab for the map.

World 876:
- You play on map 3 (because the Majority module demands the highest priority III). You must choose different capitals, as demanded for this map.

- You play in clockwise player order (all three modules have the same priority IV).

- You choose different capitals in reverse player order anywhere on the map (as the Majority module has the highest priority for choosing the map).

- The players begin with $60, $70, $80, $90 starting money (the Majority module has the highest priority III).


World 376:
- You play on map 3 (because the Majority module demands the highest priority III). You must choose different capitals, as demanded for this map.

- You play in a round-based player order (as the Privileges module has the highest priority I).

- You choose different capitals in an order depending on the starting bid (as demanded by the Privileges module) anywhere on the map (as the Majority module has the highest priority for choosing the map).

- The players all begin with $90 (the Privileges module has the highest priority II).


World 174:
- You play on map 2 (because the Military module demands the highest priority II for the map).

- You play in clockwise player order (all three modules have the same priority IV).

- You choose different capitals in reverse player order, which are at the edge of the map (demanded by the military module, which additionally demands a certain distribution dependent on the number of players) AND which offer distinct woods (ALWAYS demanded by the Pick Up & Deliver module).

In a 4-player-game, this reduces choices for capitals to cities 6, 7, 8 and 9, as both cities 5 & 10 offer the same good, and both unselected capitals must be across from each other.

- The players begin with $60, $70, $80, $90 starting money (the Majority module has the highest priority III).

Ok?
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Matthew M
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Thanks for the examples!

World 174 works as I would have expected.

For 376, the part that says "If another module demands I-III..." - that is referring to the Map priority? Good to know.

876 is a perfect example of where I was stumbling. Is it correct to say that the highest priority Map selection breaks the priority tie for Turn Order?
 
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Travis Dean
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A while ago, I read through the rulebook and made myself a spreadsheet to map out priorities of Starting Money, Map, Turn Order, and Capital Placement based on the TOP I, II, and III modules. This was my first step in putting together a dynamic aid for setup, before we got that cool website.

I still only have access to the rulebook, and no access to the Book of Worlds, so I don't know what "Choose Capital" looks like in the Book of Worlds, but from the rulebook alone, it was definitely difficult to figure out.

Starting Money, Map, and Turn Order all have priorities from 1 to 6, 5, and 4 respectively. Choosing a Capital, however, only referenced Priority IV (choosing capitals in reverse player order) unless a higher priority it out.

It appears to me that choosing a capital is more directly tied to Map priority, NOT to Turn Order priority. But since the 123 world is the only one I see, I can't say much more than that.

Back to the rulebook, again, it'll mention Priority IV for placing capitals in reverse player order. Or it'll mention `All players start in the common capital "1" in the center of the map and place all their headquarters there`. Or for 9.I or 9.II, `President's choice after establishing a company`


========

I said a lot up top, but I think this is what you need to know for determining placement of capitals (unrelated to determining which turn order you use while playing the game)

So until I see the Book of Worlds, this is my assumption on priority of choosing capitals, highest in the list takes priority (keeping in mind any restrictions the game might impose on which of the cities are eligible to be chosen):
Module 9.I or 9.II - The presidents of the stock companies choose capitals during the share round, after establishing the stock companies
Module 3.II - Based on starting bid from high to low.
Map 1, 2, or 3 - Players choose their starting capital in reverse player order.
Map 4 or 5 is used - Common Capital in the center.
 
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