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Subject: Mermaids rss

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Wes Gray
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I enjoy playing with the bonus points for shipping mini-expansion tile...however, it obviously favors the mermaids more than any other faction. I want to nerf it somehow and have found two options I find plausible.
1) The first shipping level does not count for the mermaids
2) Instead of three bonus points per shipping level, it is only 2 for the mermaids

I trend towards option 2..but what does everyone else think??
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Evil Roy
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brownsfan981 wrote:
I enjoy playing with the bonus points for shipping mini-expansion tile...however, it obviously favors the mermaids more than any other faction. I want to nerf it somehow and have found two options I find plausible.
1) The first shipping level does not count for the mermaids
2) Instead of three bonus points per shipping level, it is only 2 for the mermaids

I trend towards option 2..but what does everyone else think??
This belongs in the "Variants" forum, not "Rules".
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Marcin Woźniak
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While using expansion rule that you auction for race you want to play, it is not a problem at all.
Everybody judges by himself and pays as much as he wants for mermaids or anyone else.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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There is also the problem is Dwarves and Fakirs can't get any VPs out of it.
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Evil Roy
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brownsfan981 wrote:
ohmygosh I am SOOOOO sorry!!!! Please forgive me for my grave mistake.
Thumbing your own posts really adds to your credibility, too.
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Grant
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brownsfan981 wrote:
ohmygosh I am SOOOOO sorry!!!! Please forgive me for my grave mistake.
That was.... unnecessary. Are you really so upset that someone called you on a mistake?
 
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Wes Gray
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Hey Evil sorry I got too insulted over your comment..shouldn't have lashed out like I did. That's on me
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Wes Gray
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But I always thumb up my own posts..so I can't apologize for that lol whistle
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Grant
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brownsfan981 wrote:
But I always thumb up my own posts..so I can't apologize for that lol whistle
Well, you are a Browns fan, so we can tell your judgement is questionable to begin with.
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Wes Gray
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grant5 wrote:
brownsfan981 wrote:
But I always thumb up my own posts..so I can't apologize for that lol whistle
Well, you are a Browns fan, so we can tell your judgement is questionable to begin with.
sobluesobluesoblue
 
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C TK
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brownsfan981 wrote:
I enjoy playing with the bonus points for shipping mini-expansion tile...however, it obviously favors the mermaids more than any other faction. I want to nerf it somehow and have found two options I find plausible.
1) The first shipping level does not count for the mermaids
2) Instead of three bonus points per shipping level, it is only 2 for the mermaids

I trend towards option 2..but what does everyone else think??
You're right that the VP for shipping tile absolutely provides the greatest potential benefit to mermaids (well, and alchemists...). However, this isn't a problem in itself - many bonus tiles provide disproportionate benefits to certain races. I'm probably biased because I'm not great with mermaids, but I think mermaids need the help, at least in the original game (no extra scoring, original map).

Mermaids often struggle with getting neighbours in the west, the terrain is bad for them in the east, their SH is weak, and their faction ability isn't as strong as most other "vanilla" factions like witches, nomads, and halflings. They are also one of the worst factions to take advantage of the powerful VP for stronghold/sanctuary tile because they often build neither, rarely build both, and care much less for the workers than most other factions. Their win rate in 4 player games (with original map and scoring) on snellman is between 24% and 26% depending on the ratings of players involved, which is precisely balanced - and that's WITH the current VP for shipping tile as is. Without it, they would almost certainly be one of the weaker factions.

If you had to weaken the mermaids' potential despite their totally average performance, I would recommend to cap the tile's VPs at 9 per instance. But the data just doesn't support any reason to unilaterally nerf the mermaids like what you suggest above.
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Fernando Freire
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Quote:

You're right that the VP for shipping tile absolutely provides the greatest potential benefit to mermaids (well, and alchemists...)
Why Alchemists?
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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nandoneves2404 wrote:

Quote:

You're right that the VP for shipping tile absolutely provides the greatest potential benefit to mermaids (well, and alchemists...)
Why Alchemists?
Guess because he always plays them with early ship advances.
You can get around this with only one ship advance and BON4 second round. In this case BON10 isn't that great.
 
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Fernando Freire
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1869 wrote:
nandoneves2404 wrote:

Quote:

You're right that the VP for shipping tile absolutely provides the greatest potential benefit to mermaids (well, and alchemists...)
Why Alchemists?
Guess because he always plays them with early ship advances.
You can get around this with only one ship advance and BON4 second round. In this case BON10 isn't that great.
Later I realised a motive. With alchemists you can use the vp -> coins conversion to make the ship advances really cheap, so It would make sense to havef as many of them as possible. My strategy with them doesnt use that , though...
 
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Luke J
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CTKShadow wrote:
brownsfan981 wrote:
I enjoy playing with the bonus points for shipping mini-expansion tile...however, it obviously favors the mermaids more than any other faction. I want to nerf it somehow and have found two options I find plausible.
1) The first shipping level does not count for the mermaids
2) Instead of three bonus points per shipping level, it is only 2 for the mermaids

I trend towards option 2..but what does everyone else think??
You're right that the VP for shipping tile absolutely provides the greatest potential benefit to mermaids (well, and alchemists...). However, this isn't a problem in itself - many bonus tiles provide disproportionate benefits to certain races. I'm probably biased because I'm not great with mermaids, but I think mermaids need the help, at least in the original game (no extra scoring, original map).

Mermaids often struggle with getting neighbours in the west, the terrain is bad for them in the east, their SH is weak, and their faction ability isn't as strong as most other "vanilla" factions like witches, nomads, and halflings. They are also one of the worst factions to take advantage of the powerful VP for stronghold/sanctuary tile because they often build neither, rarely build both, and care much less for the workers than most other factions. Their win rate in 4 player games (with original map and scoring) on snellman is between 24% and 26% depending on the ratings of players involved, which is precisely balanced - and that's WITH the current VP for shipping tile as is. Without it, they would almost certainly be one of the weaker factions.

If you had to weaken the mermaids' potential despite their totally average performance, I would recommend to cap the tile's VPs at 9 per instance. But the data just doesn't support any reason to unilaterally nerf the mermaids like what you suggest above.
Hah, and I disagree, as I find Mermaids very strong! I love not having to monitor Act1 to complete towns, and the SH does give 4pw income, which is strong enough that you don't feel like you're losing out on income by upgrading a TP, but not so good that you need it. Blue terrain is generally quite good and importantly, so flexible that it's hard for anyone to break up your town sites. I also like that you can rush Fav11, or do heavy dwelling opening (with 9 power in bowl 2 to ensure act6), and either can result in a good score.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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Faction ability is very good, starting with 1 shipping is better than starting with 3 dwellings and some extra points for towns, especially together with the special town building ability.
But the sh isn't that good. You will rather build it late because the income isn't that good. 4pw isn't better then 2pw + 2c from a tp. The shippimg advance can be good if the upgrade is done late in the game with a 5vp bonus.
Bon10 can be very good in last round where shipping upgrades are often the best you can do. Getting 15 pts for the last two steps and reaching some far away blue spaces to place all your dwellings and get a good network scoring.
Upgrading shipping earlier on beyond 3 isn't a good strategy even if it allows placing some dwellings. They will not be connectable to towns, bring no leech and can't be upgraded to tp at a reasonable price.
The influence of bon10 can't be seen in a general statistic. It takes some cunning to make sure you get it last round. You will need to play directly after the player that has it and have enough resources to pass after him.
In the last round many players will upgrade to 3 shipping for connection and/or maxing out dwellings and will take bon10 if they can get it, especially if they are in close competition with mermaids.
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Luke J
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4pw isn't better than 2pw + 2c, but it's arguably better than 1pw + 2c since it is halfway to Act4 and more flexible than converting directly to coins. And I think it's much more common for Mermaids to keep 1 or 2 TP on the board rather than 3 or 4, so 1pw +2c is the proper comparison.

I don't always play it, but getting a 3-power building, a good power income, and a shipping advance means that it's often worth playing on a SH/SA round.

I haven't had a great setup for Mermaids in a while The most recent game I started, they would have been very strong from Seat 4 (round 1 dwelling scoring, Bon4, SH/SA in round 4 and 5, 2 water cult bonuses in the first three rounds, but with both Witches and Darklings picked, I opted for Nomads. But I think it's a pretty good setup for them, too.

In a couple recent games, the Mermaid player entered round 4 (with spade scoring) with tons of workers, and I think they are right up there with Halflings, Alchemists, and Witches in their ability to abuse round 4 spade scoring. Only one of the players took advantage, however, but lost due to lack of neighbors (that was robinz, if you're reading!).

I'm posting too much in this thread, but I've been looking for a platform to shout my enthusiasm for Mermaids
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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If you have the option to upgrade a 1pw 2c te to a sh the alternative often is to build a third tp. I often keep 3tp with mermaids.
I wouldn't value pw according to act4, because you will not always get it when you can afford it.
Abusing 4th round spade scoring requires digging upgrade. Witches and mermaids can hardly afford that and will not get the extra point like halflings or the 2pw per dig as alchemists with sh.
 
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Luke J
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Yeah, but then you lose the worker income. So if you're choosing between building another TP or upgrading a TP to a SH, you have to factor that in.

And I disagree with Witches and Mermaids not being able to afford a double spade upgrade. Here are three examples, just out of my first 24 games:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/LeagueRules04
(Fav9, Bon3, and a lot of money to spare)

http://terra.snellman.net/game/genius02
(Fav9 and an early TP)

http://terra.snellman.net/game/h2rdGame6
(Bon3 and Bon2. It's also visible how the lack of neighbors doomed the Mermaids)

Witches and Mermaids have two key advantages in abusing Round 4 digging: They often start with 7D or 5D+TP and thus end up ahead of the Halflings or Alchemists on worker income. Second, they are often located on several different parts of the map when Round 4 starts, so they don't need a shipping upgrade in order to reach enough diggable hexes.

Edit: I really shouldn't be on this forum. I'm spoiling the secrets for two of the only factions I'm any good at...gulp
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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Reaching diggable spaces isn't an issue. You can dig as much as you like on a single space.
 
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