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Pandemic Legacy: Season 1» Forums » General

Subject: In Defense of Destroying Components rss

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David Tolin
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GrWr wrote:
eviljelloman wrote:
leifsmart wrote:


Could you cite a source that proves the people who want the game to be replayable beyond the end of the campaign are in the minority?

https://boardgamegeek.com/forum/1539835/pandemic-legacy/gene...

Read any discussion, and it's abundantly clear. Or maybe look at the ratings for the game, which are overwhelmingly positive. If the permanence were really an issue, there wouldn't be so many perfect 10's.
People may love the game, but it doesn't prove that they love it because of the forced permanency. And contrary to the ardent defense of that aspect of the game, I feel reasonably confident that if the forced permanency aspect were absent from the design, there would be approximately just as much love for the game, and few, if any, players complaining about the lacking permanency and thinking up ways to add it to the game.
Eh, at this point, we've witnessed two Legacy games, and both have been very successful games with passionate followings. The concept seems to light up the community and create a lot of excitement. Both games hardwire permanence into the DNA of the game in significant ways. Interviews and comments from the designer suggest it is the intended core of the Legacy experience.

There is no quantifiable proof that's why people love the games, but it sure seems like the obvious conclusion. People are either responding to the games in spite of Daviau's stated design goals, or they are genuinely attracted to the games as designed.

Personally, I just can't wait for Seafall to release, since it won't be beholden to Pandemic fans so uncomfortable with the experience Daviau is trying to create.
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Dean L
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GrWr wrote:


People may love the game, but it doesn't prove that they love it because of the forced permanency. And contrary to the ardent defense of that aspect of the game, I feel reasonably confident that if the forced permanency aspect were absent from the design, there would be approximately just as much love for the game, and few, if any, players complaining about the lacking permanency and thinking up ways to add it to the game.
It's selling remarkably well though. And the ratings climb on BGG is unprecedented. That could all be just because it's a great game based on a great series (Pandemic) with broad appeal.

However, I think a huge amount is down to the novelty of the Legacy mechanic. Now, would people like it just as much if it were a replayable campaign? Possibly, we can argue that back and forth. But I do feel confident in saying that not as many people would have bought it in the first place. At worst, if the Legacy ideas are a gimmick, they're one that works.
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Adrian Rodriguez
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I cringe at the thought of adding more time to set-up just so it could be replayable. The worst part of Pandemic Legacy IMO is the set up time, which includes opening packages, understanding new rules, etc. Granted, it's part of the legacy system, but it takes away so much time from playing.
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David Tolin
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kbrigan wrote:
atonaltensor wrote:
...the reason for destroying components is experiential (it psychologically raises the stakes for your game play decisions).
You've misunderstood the designers' intentions.
Funny, since the designer has said the opposite.

Also, didn't this conversation die over a month ago? What happened to suddenly make you so grumpy again? shake
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David Goodnuff
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kbrigan wrote:
GrWr wrote:
...Not really. Pandemic does not have any type of campaign of continuous scenarios with surprises and plot twists. Those, to me, are the interesting part of Pandemic Legacy: Season 1.
None of those aspects require permanently altering the components. NONE. Plenty of people are playing rebootable versions with no difficultly whatsoever. The destruction of components is unnecessarily tacked on to the real game. (For honest people, the game play is MORE permanent than ripped up cards and sticker-covered boards are for dishonest people. If someone is a cheater, they'll find a way to move the sticker or whatever. For honest players, all decisions are binding and permenent, and not dependent upon mere components.)
You have completely missed the point. When you make a permanent decision that is non-reversible the impact is different than when you make a decision that can be easily reversed. That is the reason why the games are not rebootable. The impact is different. This is exactly the same as computer games that offer multiple saves vs say an MMO which is persistent and does not offer the ability to reset to a previous save point.
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James
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kbrigan wrote:
Many people buying Pandemic: Legacy are attracted to the campaign play, and still would be even (or even more so) if it had rebootable components.
Prove it.

The game is selling like hotcakes, and has rocketed to the top of the BGG rankings. The only ones who seem to be complaining about the non-rebootable components are people who haven't played. There are a handful of people like you who are willing to jump through a bunch of hoops to make the game rebootable, but if I had to do all the stupid crap you are doing, I would have never bought the game.
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DavidT wrote:

Also, didn't this conversation die over a month ago? What happened to suddenly make you so grumpy again? shake
Somebody made a joke about the game being a one-time experience in a thread about Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective, and this person snapped and went on a rampage.

I seriously wish I was kidding. So much rage after a comment that wasn't even directed at this person.
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GrWr wrote:
In that context, I feel that the Legacy system is a gimmick to artifically create visceral, emotional responses in the players without having to do the heavy-lifting of writing a strong-enough storyline for the campaign. If all choices have real permanent results and lost components are destroyed, you are certainly more invested in the game.
It only hurts the first time.
 
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kbrigan wrote:
There is no reason for the components to be destroyed. None whatsoever. Z-Man admits this by providing different color boxes. (Their explanation states they did so for people playing with more than one group; they admit it.) The only reason for the ripping up rip off is to make Z-man money. They should be ashamed of themselves.
For a large number of people, the experience of playing the game is significantly improved by having the permanent changes to the game be stickers. Even if you don't believe people when they say that they viscerally enjoy it, it's obviously convenient to not have to use some more complex and reusable system for tracking things.

The physical cost of this is very low. How cheap do you think it is to print another set of cards and stickers, compared to the cost of creating componentry that supports making it permanent and spending the extra time while playing to implement it? It turns out that if you have a job that pays reasonable money, it's more efficient for the system overall to just reprint the cards and stickers. Now if you think that Z-man games is overcharging for the game, perhaps you can make a case, but I think most will disagree.

In summary, YOU try to do it better!
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Dean L
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kbrigan wrote:
atonaltensor wrote:
...the reason for destroying components is experiential (it psychologically raises the stakes for your game play decisions).
You've misunderstood the designers' intentions. The game is designed to be played more than once -- that's why there are two different colored boxes, in case people are playing more than one game simultaneously. And, if people are really playing -- not cheating, not phoning in their play, not screwing around -- their decisions are even more permenent than with the mere application of a sticker. It's a lot easier to fake a sticker than to make an honest person lie.

There is no reason for the components to be destroyed. None whatsoever. Z-Man admits this by providing different color boxes. (Their explanation states they did so for people playing with more than one group; they admit it.) The only reason for the ripping up rip off is to make Z-man money. They should be ashamed of themselves.
You know that Z-man is the publisher, not the designer right? That's where you might be getting confused. The guy who designed the game and the company that decided to make two different boxes are different entities.
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mateo jurasic
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Risk legacy would not be the same amazing experience without the legacy card destruction and stickers. Pandemic legacy, while great, did not have that same feel for me... I have no desire to continue playing with it post campaign, and I'm not sure how I would without coming up with a bunch of rules, while risk easily continues being a playable and fun game once it's completed. the most interesting part of the game is "removed" from the board in the natural course of the campaign, unlike risk.

I don't look at the pandemic legacy board with all its stickers and have any special feelings or memories, but risk does a better job of recording epic moments with the board, stickers, and names and out have written on it.
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mateooo wrote:
Risk legacy would not be the same amazing experience without the legacy card destruction and stickers. Pandemic legacy, while great, did not have that same feel for me... I have no desire to continue playing with it post campaign, and I'm not sure how I would without coming up with a bunch of rules, while risk easily continues being a playable and fun game once it's completed. the most interesting part of the game is "removed" from the board in the natural course of the campaign, unlike risk.

I don't look at the pandemic legacy board with all its stickers and have any special feelings or memories, but risk does a better job of recording epic moments with the board, stickers, and names and out have written on it.
I'm only partway through Pandemic Legacy, but so far I definitely agree Risk Legacy is the better Legacy game.
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Why complain about something you don't have to buy? Don't like it, just buy Pandemic. Problem solved and no need to further debate. Good grief.
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kbrigan wrote:
atonaltensor wrote:
...the reason for destroying components is experiential (it psychologically raises the stakes for your game play decisions).
You've misunderstood the designers' intentions. The game is designed to be played more than once -- that's why there are two different colored boxes, in case people are playing more than one game simultaneously. And, if people are really playing -- not cheating, not phoning in their play, not screwing around -- their decisions are even more permenent than with the mere application of a sticker. It's a lot easier to fake a sticker than to make an honest person lie.

There is no reason for the components to be destroyed. None whatsoever. Z-Man admits this by providing different color boxes. (Their explanation states they did so for people playing with more than one group; they admit it.) The only reason for the ripping up rip off is to make Z-man money. They should be ashamed of themselves.
The game is designed to be played once.

The publishers, recognising (possibly from people's experiences with Risk Legacy) that some people would want to play more than one game at once, decided it was worth a little extra expense to support that with two different boxes.

As for whether there's a reason for ripping cards up or not, my experience of ripping a card up for the first time was something I would not have had if I'd just tucked the card away somewhere for future re-use. It's a purely symbolic difference, but, as a member of a species that thinks symbolically, symbolic differences are no less meaningful than substantial ones.

I am playing in two groups, using two copies of the game, and in both groups, when it came time to rip up the first card, there was a hesitation - unlike the sticking of stickers, tearing up a card is explicitly destructive - but in both groups, ultimately the game's owner decided to embrace the experience and, in my subjective experience, things were better for it.
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David Goodnuff
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kbrigan wrote:
EvilNuff wrote:
...When you make a permanent decision that is non-reversible the impact is different than when you make a decision that can be easily reversed.
The decision is not "easily reversed" for people who are honest. Whether or not components are altered makes no difference when people are playing the game honorably and honestly.
So by playing it as intended without putting in effort to make it resettable.
 
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SevenSpirits wrote:
It turns out that if you have a job that pays reasonable money, it's more efficient for the system overall to just reprint the cards and stickers.
This is true in a world with unlimited resources and energy. Which I think we are not.
 
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Haiku wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
It turns out that if you have a job that pays reasonable money, it's more efficient for the system overall to just reprint the cards and stickers.
This is true in a world with unlimited resources and energy. Which I think we are not.
You say that as though only obvious and direct material resource costs count for anything. But, for example, spending person-hours to make a reusable copy also ends up costing real material resources. You have to feed people, raise them, educate them, etc, to get person-hours and that ends up translating to a permanent loss in Earth's resources too. If you want to make a specific argument about some particular cost being extra meaningful compared to costs involved in the alternate production method in the very very long run, go ahead. But the idea that only sheer quantity of materials that end up in the in the hands of consumers is what matters is silly. Especially when we haven't even HEARD anyone's plan for how a reusable version of this game would be manufactured.
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Haiku wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
It turns out that if you have a job that pays reasonable money, it's more efficient for the system overall to just reprint the cards and stickers.
This is true in a world with unlimited resources and energy. Which I think we are not.
If you want to make a specific argument about some particular cost being extra meaningful compared to costs involved in the alternate production method in the very very long run, go ahead. [...] Especially when we haven't even HEARD anyone's plan for how a reusable version of this game would be manufactured.
Your point seems pretty valid, but, you are the one claiming one method is more efficient than another, so please apply to yourself.

I own games that are playable "once" (like Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective: The Thames Murders & Other Cases), I have no problem with that. But you know what, I bought it on the secondary market. Which could not be done with this game.

The legacy system trades convenience for campaign management (no book-kepping, quick setup...) and add immersion for some people (permanence) at the cost of no re-useability of the game (selling, sharing within a gaming group, replay the game 10 years later with kids, whatever...)

Everybody is entitled to choose if the tradeoff seems fair to him (for the record, I have not made my mind yet). But not everybody thinks that buying a new game is more efficient "for the overall system" just because you have the money to do so.
 
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