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Perdition's Mouth: Abyssal Rift» Forums » General

Subject: Backing or holding off, what are your reasons? Discussion. rss

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Nana Pleng

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Hi, I see this game hasn't been funded yet, which is surprising. Let's talk about why?

For me, I backed but not really 100% sure because of my wallet, ahem. There are many great kickstarter games this year. Gloomhaven, 7th continent, Sword & Sorcery, Zombicide: black plague, Super dungeon : legends, Folklore: the affliction. But I only backed Gloom and S&S. Still, my wishlist is full of many games.

Another reason is I read the comments of people who gave this game 1,2 score and they said something like it could be annoying, restricting the ways we can handle the enemies. Heroes block line of sight of each other, rondel mechanic, etc. We cannot move/ fight/ run freely like in other dungeon crawl games.


But I like it because.
-It seems challenging and if I succeed a mission but with some wounds, I may have to restart this mission to get less wounds. A lot of replayability here, it gives the 'incentive' to replay a mission right away, which is different to other games.

-Puzzles, solve puzzles with the rondel mechanic with every step we take.

-No dice, I don't know if this works for me, I've always played dice dungeon games, so this and gloomhaven will be the first two.

- Horror theme with beautiful art and everything. The theme is different to normal fantasy.

- Less set-up time? I hope so. I don't like too many components and this game provides some tokens, some cards and one-piece map, very clean look when I saw the table being played. At first, I thought the map is meh but when I thought about it, if I failed a mission, then boom! I can set it up again in X mins.

- An expansion inside the box? I'm not sure yet but it seems like there'll be an expansion includes. Great value for money if they include story (act II) or some side-missions in the ks box?. I see many games retailing with msrp of 100usd get 70-80 USD day one sale in online store in the US, and after sometime they will drop to 60-70 USD. But if we include the expansion then, the ks price is worth it.



How about yours?
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azza rein
Australia
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Love the whole concept and puzzle like dungeon crawl.

But USD115 (including shipping) is really high for an Australian for such a game. I can get FFG's warhammer quest + runebound3 for that price.

Wish it would cut down on bling and focussed more on gameplay, because that is where this game shines.
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François Mahieu
Belgium
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I personaly choose to back this one instead of Sword & Sorcery. Because of the minis, which seems to be here more detailed, and the unusual "rondel" mechanism.

Edit: I'm really surprised the way this campaign starts though. I thought the main goal would already be achieved as we speak. We're far from it. And I fear there won't be much unlocked stretch goals in the end. Hope I won't change my mind eventually, and cancel my pledge because of this.
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Jochen Wiesner
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I backed because I am particularly interested in crawlers with euroish mechanics. The repetetive choose target, check difficulty, roll dice, hope that you win mechanic of most crawlers just bore me after a few hours.

I am also quite sure that this kickstarter has really bad timing since it runs directly after gloomhaven, folklore, SDE:L and S&S. Even regarding this, I don't have the slightest doubt that this will fund. It will probably happen that some stretch goals move into an expansion though.
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Lonny x
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poifpoif wrote:
I personaly choose to back this one instead of Sword & Sorcery. Because of the minis, which seems to be here more detailed, and the unusual "rondel" mechanism.

Edit: I'm really surprised the way this campaign starts though. I thought the main goal would already be achieved as we speak. We're far from it. And I fear there won't be much unlocked stretch goals in the end. Hope I won't change my mind eventually, and cancel my pledge because of this.
This is why I'm holding off. In my opinion, whats in the box isn't worth 100. That's ok and pretty typical in KS because the stretch goals usually make it worth the value of the pledge and then some. However, unless something amazing happens that doesn't look like its going to be the case for PM.
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Ricky W
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I find the mechanics very interesting, so I pledged 1 $ for now, perhaps going for more later...
PM is an intriguing fusion of dungeon crawling, worker placement and puzzle solving.

But at heart I am a roleplayer.
I like rolling dice and levelling up very much, which isn't going to happen in PM.
Said that, I went all in for Sword & Sorcery, but still want to support PM! I'll gladly recommend it to all gamers I know.
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Jochen Wiesner
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malkaven wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
I personaly choose to back this one instead of Sword & Sorcery. Because of the minis, which seems to be here more detailed, and the unusual "rondel" mechanism.

Edit: I'm really surprised the way this campaign starts though. I thought the main goal would already be achieved as we speak. We're far from it. And I fear there won't be much unlocked stretch goals in the end. Hope I won't change my mind eventually, and cancel my pledge because of this.
This is why I'm holding off. In my opinion, whats in the box isn't worth 100. That's ok and pretty typical in KS because the stretch goals usually make it worth the value of the pledge and then some. However, unless something amazing happens that doesn't look like its going to be the case for PM.
There is really no risk in backing. If this gets funded within the next 20 days, I am quite sure we will see several strech goals reached to make the game worth the money. If it doesn't get funded early enough, you can simply pull out.
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Georg Bauer
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I decided to put my money into the S&S KS for the simple reason that in case of a game failure with S&S (which is not something I expect, but which can happen with KS games sometimes) I at least get a pile of miniatures out that I can throw in many generic fantasy settings, too. The minis in Perditions Mouth are much more thematically specialized and so not as universally useable.

The second reason is that - despite me really loving the idea of rondels for action selection and preferring the card based combat a lot over dice based combat - the actual implementation, especially of the cards, is a bit of a letdown. Really, most of the cards boil, down to just a big printed number and a selection of icons, making any check solely a "select cards with the right icon and add those numbers" thing, which I can't see to hold up during play thematically. Sure, mechanically it will work, dice aren't much more than just numbers to add, too. But while dice are unobstrusive, the cards stare me in the face with just a big fat number and irrelevant fluff text that tries to paste on theme.

Third reason is that while the minis are really cool, they do feel a bit thematically samey to me. Which is to be expected in a game with a much more strong thematic focus, but well, I just like variance. Going against a Gremlin+Orc group one day and against some Demon-conjuring necromancer next day and against a Dragon with some dragon-kind fighters on the third day just tickles my fancy more.

Lastly, with a game with more bare-bones and non-elaborate structure I can easily retrofit mechanics into it. For example if the dice get on my nerves, it's easy to build a card deck that mimics the combat cards from PM in the S&S game (the main problem I have with dice sometimes is that thhey don't remember they fucked me over several times already and continue doing so, while a stack of cards with a bunch of bad cards slowly get's reduced and so I WILL finally get to the good stuff ). It's harder to pull out elaborate mechanics that don't work and replace them with simpler stuff without breaking the game than it is to replace simple mechanics with other simple mechanics. So in a way S&S is more "repairable" to me than PM.

And, of course, the cold hard truth is that my wife would kill me if I would buy both
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azza rein
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It seems many people have been burnt out by the S&S kickstarter (in the sense that many went all in and have no more $$$$).

I didn't back S&S because it looked too fiddly for what it was. With that amount of bookkeeping I might as well play on the computer, or an actual rpg scenario.

But the components were sweet, and so were the exclusives.

Here I have the opposite dilemma. Not sure the game is worth the money in terms of components. But the game play looks more interesting and less fiddly.
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Falchonon Windbö
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Same here. I didnt join the S&S kickstarter because I was holding back my money for this one. S&S looked to clean for me, the theme and the mechanical side didnt show anything new or intresting enough for me to join the campaign.

Sure every backer of S&S will get a very nice game with a lot of good miniatures. But PM:AR looks much more original, darker and thematic to me.

I hope a lot of other gamers will join this project
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Timo Multamäki
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I believe that our timing (right after some other dungeon crawlers) could have been better, like some of you said. But - we decided this timing as it's about last possible time to allow Essen 2016 delivery. If we'd run the campaign for instance on February 2016, the delivery within 2016 would not be possible.

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Peter Andersson
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I backed because of the theme and interesting mechanics. I don't want another descent. If I want that I'd just play descent. Perdition's Mouth looks like an entire new take on the dungeon crawler.

This is also a thoroughly play tested and tweaked game. And that's something you can't say about many kickstarter games! They even released the rules prior to the kickstarter. How often do you see that? I've seen countless threads here with users demanding the rules for ongoing ks campaigns. Some release the rules, some don't.

For example, I'm backing another ks at the moment and that has rule addition as stretch goals!

And, of course the arwork, interesting stories, I like the developers (never met them, but have spoken to them here), and lots of other reasons.
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Paul Chamberland
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I backed PM day one because all the pre-kickstarter discussion on BGG caught my interest. The slow start is surprising. The 48 hour funding goals experiment obviously didn't work well.

I have no doubt the game will fund, but I am concerned with how many stretch goals will be reached by the end. A lot of stretch goals adding to the expansion box are needed for it to be worth backing the KS rather than waiting for OLGS pricing and post-release reviews.

PlengRock wrote:
There are many great kickstarter games this year. Gloomhaven, 7th continent, Sword & Sorcery, Zombicide: black plague, Super dungeon : legends, Folklore: the affliction.
Add Arcadia Quest: Inferno, Gloom of Killforth, Lobotomy, and The Others: 7 Sins to the list of dungeon crawler type kickstarters within the last few months.

Eridis wrote:
I believe that our timing (right after some other dungeon crawlers) could have been better, like some of you said. But - we decided this timing as it's about last possible time to allow Essen 2016 delivery. If we'd run the campaign for instance on February 2016, the delivery within 2016 would not be possible.
Essen delivery is a red flag for some backers as there is a risk the game will be rushed through production in order to meet an Essen release date. The Project: Elite debacle is an example.

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Dan
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malkaven wrote:
This is why I'm holding off. In my opinion, whats in the box isn't worth 100. That's ok and pretty typical in KS because the stretch goals usually make it worth the value of the pledge and then some. However, unless something amazing happens that doesn't look like its going to be the case for PM.
This is the problem that some campaigns face... people hold off on pledging to see how well it will fund, and then the funding gets "dammed up" because many people don't want to go in first.

I used to do the same thing, playing "wait and see". But eventually what I realized is that since you aren't going to get charged until the deadline, why not throw your support in at the beginning? If everyone that was waiting to see how much got unlocked just went ahead and pledged, then I think the psychological effect would help spur others to also join in and then you have a really successful campaign!

That's one reason to have the social goals... the number of backers and amount of buzz is just as important as the actual dollar amount, as you hope that those "supporter" tier backers turn to the purchasing tiers

PS: Great discussion, OP
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Thibaud Dejardin
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My impression is that Perdition's Mouth has taken some really courageous choices, which are not always paying back.

Some examples:

The "no early birds" is really cool because everyone will pay the same price. However, that didn't attract as much poeple as early birds would have. The essen signed box is not really wonderful because not everybody is able to go to essen. I would have payed a few more dollars for a signed box if it was going to be sent to me, but I can't afford to go to essen in 2016.

75K is a lot funding needed. But of course it is a lot more realistic than the 20K asked for the first zombicide for example. However, the project thus seems to be funded really slow even if it does a really nive job in fact. This make some poeple stay off the game until some stretchgoals are reached.

The dark theme is realy cool, because it changes from other "generic fantasy games", but everyone doesn't like it and the miniatures have a harder time to find a different use.

In Perdition's Mouth, womens are not naked, or even sexy. One is even beared. While this is really cool, and that should please poeple always screaming out loud about project with sexy and unrealistic girls, this ins't so simple. Putting some naked women in your game makes poeple angry, and causes a lot of discussions about the game, it creates free publicity/buzz. And let's face it: even if a lot of poeple ask for realisticly dressed women, the games with the most offensive miniature sell a lot!

The mechanics are really clever, in my opinion, but a strategical game sells often less than a dice fest game.

And of course, the timing is not perfect, because a lot of big games have emptied the wallets of backers, and the end of the year is near the corner, with its presents, and its taxes! I didn't back SS because I wanted to keep my money for perdition's mouth, which offers something really great and innovating I didn't find on SS.

All this make Perdition's mouth a really great project because of those choices, but that doesn't make it a stellar hit like some other games.
The kickstarter is going just fine, in my opinion. Really few games over 30% are not funded in the end, but there's chances this will not raise 5000% of the total needed. With a few addons, and some kickstarter exclusive, the game could have a boost.
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Dan
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Archange, that's some great feedback. Thanks!

DDP definitely have addons planned, and I think that maybe the word on that hasn't been out there as much, so maybe that needs to be in an upcoming update. Unfortunately, they will be handled after the campaign by a pledge manager, which makes it more difficult to integrate into the actual campaign.

I'm sure there will be more info on it soon.
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Thibaud Dejardin
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oddbod wrote:
DDP definitely have addons planned (...)Unfortunately, they will be handled after the campaign by a pledge manager, which makes it more difficult to integrate into the actual campaign.
May I ask why won't they be integrated into the campaign? Are they still projects that cannot be released at the same time than the game? Or because the cost is not already known?
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Dan
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Archange227 wrote:

May I ask why won't they be integrated into the campaign? Are they still projects that cannot be released at the same time than the game? Or because the cost is not already known?
I can't go into any detail at the moment, as DDP haven't made most of the information public yet. Hopefully that can happen soon

Part of the delay is probably just getting all the ducks in a row so as not to make any mistakes, and partly to coordinate with a pledge manager, which isn't as instantaneous as one might wish.

Also, to avoid confusion, by campaign integration I'm just talking about how kickstarter doesn't have a way to integrate add-ons into the reward tiers directly, so they always have to be ordered and tracked afterward through a pledge manager tool.
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Thibaud Dejardin
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oddbod wrote:

Also, to avoid confusion, by campaign integration I'm just talking about how kickstarter doesn't have a way to integrate add-ons into the reward tiers directly, so they always have to be ordered and tracked afterward through a pledge manager tool.
Indeed, but usually, the cost is specified so poeple can manage their pledge to show they will buy the addons, even if usually, you can modify the amount pledged after the campaign, with the pledge manager.
For example: if a new character costs 15$, and 3D doors cost 25$ then some poeple will raise their pledge to 139$, not changind their reward tier.

That helps to increase the amount pledged (so it affects the % funding and the popularity, because the amount pledged is part of the kickstarter popularity algorythm).

Some campaigns even ask to directly add the shipping cost, to increase the total amount pledged, because it helps with popularity (especially mid/late campaign, as the backers/day ratio diminishes every day). That have the drawback to be an artificial amount, and that may be a problem for the company if the goal is strictly reached but one third of the money is in fact shipping costs!
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Dan
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Archange227 wrote:

Some campaigns even ask to directly add the shipping cost, to increase the total amount pledged, because it helps with popularity (especially mid/late campaign, as the backers/day ratio diminishes every day). That have the drawback to be an artificial amount, and that may be a problem for the company if the goal is strictly reached but one third of the money is in fact shipping costs!
I can't speak directly for DDP in that capacity (I'm just helping out with editing and graphics, really). But I think that's probably why they aren't asking people to integrate add-ons and shipping into their pledges at the moment... they have been very careful about coming up with the right funding goals and probably don't want to artificially increase the funding amount.

But you make good points. I know Timo et al will be reading these at some point, probably between demos. We'll have to wait and see their response.
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David Knepper
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NO 6 6
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Dan
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Aging One wrote:
NO 6 6
Is this your reason for backing, or for waiting?

It's definitely one of my reasons for getting involved.
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David Knepper
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oddbod wrote:
Aging One wrote:
NO 6 6
Is this your reason for backing, or for waiting?

It's definitely one of my reasons for getting involved.

Holding off. whistle
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Timo Multamäki
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Archange227 wrote:
oddbod wrote:
DDP definitely have addons planned (...)Unfortunately, they will be handled after the campaign by a pledge manager, which makes it more difficult to integrate into the actual campaign.
May I ask why won't they be integrated into the campaign? Are they still projects that cannot be released at the same time than the game? Or because the cost is not already known?
Pretty much everything we're planning to offer is ready or at very least advances beta stages.

However, my personal view is that it would have been best to allow certain items which we could have released as addons even at day one, to be included as free addons (via stretch goals).

This would have caused myriad of problems if implemented via KS.

And of course everyone should keep in mind that via KS is approximately 10% more expensive for us than any other way. But I'm not sure if this is fully understood?
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Timo Multamäki
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Aging One wrote:
NO 6 6
I'll reveal you a secret. We will be offering special Perdition's Mouth die as add-on.

It'll be d0. The only die you'll need in PM, if even that.
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