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Subject: Working 9-5 Clarification (just want to make sure I'm doing it right) rss

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Zachary Homrighaus
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Played a simulated 3p game tonight and learned a lot! I'm teaching this to my game group tomorrow and want to make sure I have everything down.

My question is about Phase 3 - Working 9:00 - 5:00.

The rule book states:

"In this phase, all players take turns in turn order. Each player may perform one action for each card he has at work... Actions have to be performed in the order listed here; The order in which the cards have been placed has no influence."

My question is whether a player plays their entire org structure at once, (in the order of events - recruit, train, market, get food & drinks, etc.)

-or-

If Player 1 plays their first card, then player 2 plays their first card, then player 3 plays their first card... then back to player 1 to play their second card, etc.

I know each player reveals their structure simultaneously, so you'll be able to see what others are planning, but the answer to the above has an impact on what order you might play employees within the same action type (e.g. Get Food & Drink).

I assume it is the former and that you play out your entire "work day" at once and then the next player in turn order plays their "work day" to completion, but I want to make sure as I'm not 100% clear based on what is written in the rules.

Thanks!
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Dave Eisen
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Your entire workday. I agree it is less clear than it might be.
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Mauve Co
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There is an older thread that covers this, with an answer from one of the designers. To summarize, dkeisen is correct (each player does all of their phase 3 before the next player).

A tangential note:
zjhomrighaus wrote:
I know each player reveals their structure simultaneously, so you'll be able to see what others are planning, but the answer to the above has an impact on what order you might play employees within the same action type (e.g. Get Food & Drink).
It also affects:
* hiring and training
* all employees who interact with the board
For hire and train, it's possible for someone to simply train before another player could do a hire+train combo. For example, first player trains their Errand Boy to a Cart Operator, taking the last card in the process; a later player will be unable to hire+trains a new Cart Operator for themselves (or anything else in that chain without a Guru, due to the general limitation of training an employee at most once per round).

For the board, it's possible to place/move something that blocks (or unblocks) other actions. For example, the first player could place a garden in a way that makes it impossible for a later player to place a billboard in a particular location due to the restaurant blocking one of the squares. Similarly, the first player might use a Regional Manager to move a restaurant in a way that makes it possible for a later player to place a new house where the restaurant used to be.

[edit: corrected the hire+train example to actually demonstrate the difference]
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To expand on the Hire Train, If there are no Management Trainees available at the start of my turn, but I have one on the beach, I cannot first train him up to a level 2, and then hire him again.
 
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Asher D.
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True, due to sequencing. But you could instead hire/train a virtual management trainee into whatever you can train them without having any management trainee cards available, reaching the desired result.

It's specifically stated in the rules that you don't have to have the base card available if you can both hire and train to a higher level right away.
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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After reading the rules several times and playing solo for 45 minutes we still got our first game wrong in this regard.

Wow! Great question!
 
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adiamant wrote:
True, due to sequencing. But you could instead hire/train a virtual management trainee into whatever you can train them without having any management trainee cards available, reaching the desired result.

It's specifically stated in the rules that you don't have to have the base card available if you can both hire and train to a higher level right away.
True as well. This game does a fantastic job with the turn order. I do not always want to go first, and I do not always want to go last, but I never want to be in the middle.
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Zachary Homrighaus
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Thanks everyone!

I appreciate the confirmation.

After my game and posting the question, I was thinking more about the pros/cons of the other option... e.g. if players play one card at a time during phase 3 vs. their whole structure at once.

I'm not suggesting I will house rule this or that is would be better, but it does result in some interesting situations. For instance, people might include training actions just to buy time to see what other players are doing on their turn. People might add additional mgmt to their org for the same reason. Maybe you want to see what another player is going to market before you decide what to market yourself... or before you choose what that Cart Operator is going to pick up this turn.

I think the opportunities to really adjust strategy mid-Phase 3 would be relatively few,but it would add a certain tension to the round when someone drops a bomb on you WHILE you are playing your turn... not before or after.

I really don't think it would change things all that much aside from offering these opportunities to directly react to a player's move with your own (provided you left enough room to maneuver in your structure).

Anyway, can't wait to play this with other people tonight! Thanks for your help.
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It would make turn order less important, which makes having certain employees less valuable. It also eliminates the milestone for having flown the first banner of advertising, which gives you '2 open slots' for determining turn order.
 
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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Mabuchi wrote:
It also eliminates the milestone for having flown the first banner of advertising, which gives you '2 open slots' for determining turn order.
how so?
 
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We were playing that everyone did recruiting in turn order, then training, etc.

I am glad to see this distinction made. I think it will make turn order more interesting and that it may speed the game up and reduce AP.
 
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Mauve Co
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
I think the opportunities to really adjust strategy mid-Phase 3 would be relatively few,but it would add a certain tension to the round when someone drops a bomb on you WHILE you are playing your turn... not before or after.
The increased opportunities to respond, and the downtime reduction that typically results from 'smaller' turns, are why many games have that structure.

I don't think it would work well for games like FCM, where the actions interact with each other a lot both in the current round (game turn) and later ones. I only noted the most direct interactions between actions (affecting possibility), but there's lots of indirect effects (affecting desirability) too.

Just considering the current round:
For example, the placement of a marketing campaign could easily affect your hire+train choices, since you might need more of a type of food/beverage or a type you can't currently produce. You might think that food/beverage production is relatively solitary, but you're reasonably likely to care about what other people produce (which affects the houses they can sell to) and placing/moving a restaurant (via Regional Manager) would be even more likely to matter.
 
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Zachary Homrighaus
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Mabuchi wrote:
It also eliminates the milestone for having flown the first banner of advertising, which gives you '2 open slots' for determining turn order.
I know we are talking about a hypothetical that is outside the rules, so don't want to dig too far in on this... but, I don't think this is right. Don't the rules state that everyone who completes a milestone in a round achieves it?

So under the actual rules of play (and not my musings about how it might work a different way), if Player 1 runs a billboard campaign and Player 2 does that same on their turn... don't they both gain the achievement "First Billboard Placed"?

I think milestones are an instance where turn order does NOT matter.

Yes, you could see what your opponent did earlier in their turn and decide to do likewise, but that sort of copy-cat move seems like it happens the turn before... like when they hire a Marketing Trainee or Waitress or Errand Boy. That is your opportunity to copy and keep pace... once they are ready to place their first marketing campaign, you are either sharing that milestone with them (based on your previous hiring) or you're too late.

Right?
 
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Zachary Homrighaus
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NikolasCo wrote:

I don't think it would work well for games like FCM, where the actions interact with each other a lot both in the current round (game turn) and later ones. I only noted the most direct interactions between actions (affecting possibility), but there's lots of indirect effects (affecting desirability) too.
Yeah, I don't disagree.. I don't think it would be better, but it would create some different decision making opportunities.
 
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
Mabuchi wrote:
It also eliminates the milestone for having flown the first banner of advertising, which gives you '2 open slots' for determining turn order.
I know we are talking about a hypothetical that is outside the rules, so don't want to dig too far in on this... but, I don't think this is right. Don't the rules state that everyone who completes a milestone in a round achieves it?

So under the actual rules of play (and not my musings about how it might work a different way), if Player 1 runs a billboard campaign and Player 2 does that same on their turn... don't they both gain the achievement "First Billboard Placed"?

I think milestones are an instance where turn order does NOT matter.

Yes, you could see what your opponent did earlier in their turn and decide to do likewise, but that sort of copy-cat move seems like it happens the turn before... like when they hire a Marketing Trainee or Waitress or Errand Boy. That is your opportunity to copy and keep pace... once they are ready to place their first marketing campaign, you are either sharing that milestone with them (based on your previous hiring) or you're too late.

Right?
You still get the milestone but it is useless. The milestone gives you '2 open slots' for determining turn order, but the whole value of turn order would be greatly diminished with that type of play structure. It essentially makes it a useless milestone. Turn order value is based on being able to beat your opponents to the punch, and if we stagger phase 3 it only benefits huge employee companies, whereas the current structure can benefit both.
 
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
NikolasCo wrote:

I don't think it would work well for games like FCM, where the actions interact with each other a lot both in the current round (game turn) and later ones. I only noted the most direct interactions between actions (affecting possibility), but there's lots of indirect effects (affecting desirability) too.
Yeah, I don't disagree.. I don't think it would be better, but it would create some different decision making opportunities.
Not really, it effectively creates more potential stalemates.
 
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Zachary Homrighaus
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Mabuchi wrote:
zjhomrighaus wrote:
NikolasCo wrote:

I don't think it would work well for games like FCM, where the actions interact with each other a lot both in the current round (game turn) and later ones. I only noted the most direct interactions between actions (affecting possibility), but there's lots of indirect effects (affecting desirability) too.
Yeah, I don't disagree.. I don't think it would be better, but it would create some different decision making opportunities.
Not really, it effectively creates more potential stalemates.
Again.. I'm not saying it's better, but I disagree that it doesn't create different (not necessarily better) decisions. As I illustrated above, it potentially changes the nature and strategy of setting your org. Yes, it probably puts a premium on larger orgs, but you could skip training and jump right to marketing with your first play if you go 3rd. That would allow you to beat your opponents to the punch. Or you could go early in turn order and choose to recruit and train up an employee to snatch one of the 1x roles... or you could sit back and wait to see what your opponents market and produce before playing your cart operator later in the round.

The single advantage this sort of turn order would provide in my mind is that it's more thematic. If you are Burger King, you don't get to see what McDonalds is doing for the whole year before executing your strategy for the year. You get to react in real time to their marketing campaigns and shifting store locations, etc. I don't fault the game at all for not having this aspect more closely follow real life... it's a game after all, but that was why I originally started thinking about how the alternating turn order might work.

Anyway, it absolutely does not matter since these aren't the rules and I can't argue the alternating turn order is better than the actual rules, so it's all moot... but I don't agree that it just creates stalemates... FWIW.
 
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No it is just not a good idea. A real strength to this game is the decision making on the turn order, when to go first, and when to go last. With this variant, the only strategy that makes sense is getting the biggest company so you can essentially delay your actions to the point of playing out all phases sequentially without anyone reacting prior to you finishing your plan, which is exactly what the game does now, except much more streamlined AND gives company structure flexibility.
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Zachary Homrighaus
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Mabuchi wrote:
No it is just not a good idea...
Yep, you're right. Let me go back and edit all the posts where I said it was a good idea... hmm... still looking...
 
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