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Subject: Specific Loadouts? rss

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Kevin Outlaw
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So, is anyone able to say if you get all the models you need in the box?

What I mean is, the sprues have plenty of build options, including a range of weapons, such as launchers and melta guns, but are those options really only for people who want to use the models for tabletop games? Does the game include a specific list of loadouts for how you need to build the models in order to play the scenarios in the game?

From one of the videos, it seems that the scenarios allow you to kit out your marines however you like (within certain limitations). For example, you could choose to take a grenade launcher or a melta gun as your heavy weapon option. But do you have enough miniatures in the box to create all the combinations you would use? If I build too many marines with melta guns, would I have to proxy my grenade launchers?

It also appears that the dreadnought model has weapon choices, but is there weapon choices in the game? If there is, you would need to either magnetize the weapon, or else use your model as a proxy in the games where you are using the weapon type you didn't build.

(Hope this post makes some kind of sense... It's late... I'm tired.)
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Joshua D
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Based on my experience with Assassinorum, the build instructions will give you schematics for building the models for use in the boxed game, or for the collectible wargame. I guess as such because in Assassinorum, the build sheet said, for Lord Drask (the boss), to build him for use in A:ES do this and to build him for use in 40k do that.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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KiwiStalk wrote:
Based on my experience with Assassinorum, the build instructions will give you schematics for building the models for use in the boxed game, or for the collectible wargame. I guess as such because in Assassinorum, the build sheet said, for Lord Drask (the boss), to build him for use in A:ES do this and to build him for use in 40k do that.


This is a bit different to Assassinorum, because in that game you don't get to choose your loadout.

I've just watched one of the videos again that showed the back of the tac' marine cards. The unit comprises one leader and nine regular bodies. Of those nine regulars, one can choose to carry a heavy bolter or missile launcher. Another model has a choice of a melta gun, flamer, or combi weapon. That means to have all options for a ten man team, you would need fifteen miniatures.

I'm not sure you get enough miniatures to do every build option. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Joshua D
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
KiwiStalk wrote:
Based on my experience with Assassinorum, the build instructions will give you schematics for building the models for use in the boxed game, or for the collectible wargame. I guess as such because in Assassinorum, the build sheet said, for Lord Drask (the boss), to build him for use in A:ES do this and to build him for use in 40k do that.


This is a bit different to Assassinorum, because in that game you don't get to choose your loadout.

I've just watched one of the videos again that showed the back of the tac' marine cards. The unit comprises one leader and nine regular bodies. Of those nine regulars, one can choose to carry a heavy bolter or missile launcher. Another model has a choice of a melta gun, flamer, or combi weapon. That means to have all options for a ten man team, you would need fifteen miniatures.

I'm not sure you get enough miniatures to do every build option. But maybe I'm wrong.


Lol Ok...
 
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Mark
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This is a picture of the forces shown on the back of the model construction instructions.
I cannot say for sure if these are the only weapons combinations, or the recommended weapon combinations. Remember, the models are generic in that they can represent any Space Marine Legion. The game cards are Ultramarine/Word Bearers specific, but, any Legion could be substituted. The card's factions have a Good Guy and Chaos bent, but not enough to matter.
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Kevin Outlaw
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That's probably a recommended build, but that image does seem to confirm my suspicion: The 10 man tac' team up top has a grenade launcher and what appears to be a combi. That means if you wanted to take a flamer, melta gun, or heavy bolter, you would need to magnetize the weapons or else just use the launcher and combi as proxies.

(BTW - my late-night maths was wonky, you would need 13 figures to have the options for a 10 man team: 1 captain, 7 regulars, and then 1 of each of the heavy weapon loadouts. That's assuming there are no options for the captain's weapons.)
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Mark
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I'm usually particular about my models looking like what they represent. I'll buy, build, and paint a second terminator to have the option of an Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon for my Death Wing Space Hulk terminators. But, in this game, the models are more game pieces than miniatures. Imagine if you played chess with your models. You'd be less likely to be concerned that each model be armed as shown. You can play BaC without confusing what special weapons the model carries. There are only a few on the board, and their effects are well laid out.

OMG! I feel it's time to rhyme...The game is more abstract, and it don't detract if the models are not exact.

Do NOT think I am advising or excusing egregious "anything goes" anarchy! Build and paint your models. Anything less is an effrontery to model modelling.
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:
Imagine if you played chess with your models. You'd be less likely to be concerned that each model be armed as shown.


Unless you are playing Warhammer 40,000 Regicide, of course

ZombieMark wrote:
You can play BaC without confusing what special weapons the model carries. There are only a few on the board, and their effects are well laid out.


Don't really agree with that, unfortunately. There are five weapon options just for the tac' unit, probably more for the other units, and no cards or anything to dictate what you picked for each one. I think it would be confusing, especially in the larger games. If all three tac' units were fielding weapons that were not reflected by the weapons the models are holding, it would be a bit of a pain to keep track.

 
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Mark
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Perhaps. I'm the last one to argue against going the distance to play with properly presented models with exact armaments. But, the nature of this game, and that this is first a board game forum, means it should be made clear to those who don't know that you do get enough models and options in the box to play the scenarios as written. I do believe the scenarios and extra bits on the sprues allow for OPTIONAL variations. And, scenarios are going to be no larger than the composition shown in that instruction page. And, oh heck yes, GW encourages further purchases to expand your collection.arrrh
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:
But, the nature of this game, and that this is first a board game forum, means it should be made clear to those who don't know that you do get enough models and options in the box to play the scenarios as written. I do believe the scenarios and extra bits on the sprues allow for OPTIONAL variations. And, scenarios are going to be no larger than the composition shown in that instruction page.


Fair point.

It is true there will be enough physical pieces to play every scenario. You are never going to be asked to field two Ultramarine tac' squads, for example.

But here's the thing - the scenarios list the squads you need to take. But then the squad cards give you options that are baked into the rules. They are not optional variants. They are part of the strategy - part of what makes the scenarios replayable.

How will your squad fair if it takes a melta gun? What if you swap it out for a combi?

The nature of the game is that it is a WYSIWYG format. You are clearly supposed to field models that show your loadouts, and there are no cards or tokens to show what a proxy model is standing in for.

So, miniatures gamers who want to play a WYSIWYG game are not getting enough models to cater for every possible combination (they'll be buying two boxes anyway, so they won't care). Meanwhile, boardgamers are not getting any tokens or cards to designate what their "abstract piece" is representing, which is something I suspect most boardgamers would be expecting.

It's not a deal breaker of course. It is easy enough to write "plasma gun" or whatever on a small piece of card and white tac it to the miniature's base, but to me it is an indication that GW still isn't quite in the boardgame mindset (after all those punch boards have plenty of space they could have put a few extra tokens on).

It's all moving in the right direction though
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Mark
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Again, all you say is true. Yes, this box full of hotness plastic Heresy models has extra weapons, but not extra marines. Enough extra weapons to arm the marines with any OPTIONS. But, to clarify (and NOT trying to be an apologist for GW), what you get in the box is enough plastic models to play ANY scenario in the game. The squad cards come with OPTIONS for different weapons. You may freely choose how you want to arm some of your marines with these options. Those so armed squads can be plugged into any scenario. So, if I like the meltagun, instead of the plasma gun, I can arm one marine with the meltagun. The scenario plays the same either way. You don't get enough marines to have multiple weapons options available (i.e., a meltagun guy AND a plasma gun guy). Lo and behold, you can always buy more guys from GW and give them different OPTIONAL weapons.

What will not happen in our lifetime is GW provides counters to show proxy weapons. GW certainly wants you to buy more guys. Many of us more afflicted types always do, anyway. There is no shiftiness here. It's all legit.

The "solution" for those so inclined is to buy multiple sets (and maybe split them up, (those terminators are highly desirable), wait for boxsets. Or, look for ebay deals.
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:


What will not happen in our lifetime is GW provides counters to show proxy weapons. GW certainly wants you to buy more guys. Many of us more afflicted types always do, anyway. There is no shiftiness here. It's all legit.



No-one claimed shiftiness. (Just to reiterate, I am a fan of GW products, and rate all of their most recent board games highly.)

But it highlights why I say GW are not really in the boardgamer mindset. People who are buying for the miniatures are going to buy multiple sets. People who want to play a WYSIWYG system are going to buy additional models and be very happy. The only people who would want to use tokens or cards to clarify loadouts are the more casual gamers who want to buy one box and play. Those people may not even buy one box as-is.

Let's take a look at those terminators (which are absolutely amazing, by the way)...

In scenario 2, one squad of termies faces off against one squad of tac' marines. The scenario instructs the player to take one termie squad. The player takes the card for that squad, which then offers the composition options.

For EACH termie in the squad, the player has the option of a bolter and power fist, bolter and lightning claw, bolter and chainfist, or two lightning claws. And those options do matter to how that scenario plays out.

A squad of lightning claw termies against long-range tac' marines is going to produce a very different gaming experience compared to a squad of bolter-armed termies against the same tac' marines.

Let's say I have built all my termines with a bolter and power fist, but I want to take one of each kind of termie for this mission. How am I supposed to differentiate them on the board? There is nothing in this box that makes that possible.

At the moment, the options are buying more models, magnetizing the weapons, making tokens to stick on the bases, or painting numbers on the bases and having a little reference chart that says Termie One has a bolter, and so on...

Furthermore, the game really provides a lot of upfront options. There is a review on TGN where the reviewer said he got analysis paralysis just building the models, because he wasn't sure what weapon options to use.

Perhaps the simplest solution would have been for the scenarios to include a fixed loadout army list (like in the scenarios for Space Hulk), with specific instructions on which weapons to equip. There could then have been a section at the back of the rules that described how to customize the units for advanced gamers by swapping out the weapons. That keeps the game entry-level, while also providing that gateway into the wider world of hobby gaming.

Like I said, it's not a deal breaker, but if GW wants to snare more boardgamers (and boardgamers are missing out on a lot if they aren't snared, because I am one of those people who actually enjoys GW products immensely) then I think there is more they could do to become inclusive. They have already made giant steps with this set, and I do think it bodes well for the future.
 
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Terry Green
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So my plan is to assemble the minis as per the the picture taken above.

If I wanted to assemble the other options could someone suggest what mini's i would actually purchase?

Note i only own Space Hulk and own no other GW products.

Also, as the above poster said this isnt a deal breaker for me but the lack of options in space hulk actually worked in my situation.

Final note I cannot wait to finally play marine vs marine!
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Kevin Outlaw
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greengoblin35 wrote:
So my plan is to assemble the minis as per the the picture taken above.

If I wanted to assemble the other options could someone suggest what mini's i would actually purchase?

Note i only own Space Hulk and own no other GW products.

Also, as the above poster said this isnt a deal breaker for me but the lack of options in space hulk actually worked in my situation.

Final note I cannot wait to finally play marine vs marine!


Well, Space Hulk (third edition) has got you covered for a few of the termie options, as long as you don't mind them looking like Blood Angels on the table

If you intend to use your Blood angels, you already have a heavy flamer model, so you don't need to build the heavy flamer model from BaC. You also already have a seargeant with a bolter and power sword, a termie with two lightning claws, and a termie with a chainfist. So, assuming you only want to field one of each weapon option, you are pretty much there.

Here are some other things worth considering:

Buy two sets of BaC (this still doesn't give you every option, but you have more options than you really need to have countless combinations, and you can also play the "big" mission that is in this week's White Dwarf magazine).

Buy one set, paint them all like smurfs, and then find a friend who also has a set that he or she has painted in Word Bearer colours. Again, you aren't all the way there, but it's much closer.

Just play with the models in the box for now, and wait a while. There are bound to be more boxed sets of miniatures coming along soon.

Other than that, for the time being I think you need to turn to Forge World (if you want 30K). I don't have no truck with dem, so I will leave that to someone deeper into the hobby than I am.
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Terry Green
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Thank you for the great advice!

I will definitely use the terminators from SH if want to change things up.
 
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greengoblin35 wrote:
Thank you for the great advice!

I will definitely use the terminators from SH if want to change things up.


For the sake of completeness, to the best of my knowledge, these are the combinations:

Tac' squad
1 captain (don't know the weapon options).
9 marines with bolters.

1 marine can take a heavy bolter or grenade launcher.
1 marine can take a plasma gun, combi, or flamer.

Terminators
1 sergeant with bolter and fist.
4 terminators each with bolter and fist, twin lightning claws, bolter and chainfist, or bolter and claw.

1 terminator can have a heavy flamer.
1 sergeant may take twin claws instead..

Dreadnought
Choice of multi-melta or assault cannon heavy weapon.

The named characters in the set have fixed loadouts with no options.
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:

No-one claimed shiftiness. (Just to reiterate, I am a fan of GW products, and rate all of their most recent board games highly.).

No, I didn't mean to infer that you did. I agree with what you've said, and you've said it well. I just want to ensure Geeks new to GW games understand this game includes all they need to play this game.

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Sheldon Turner
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I'm really stuck on this issue. I will probably never play 30k or 40k because I'm generally a hobbyist first and casual gamer second. From that perspective, a range of weapon choices will be more fun to paint. From a board game perspective, less options will keep it more streamlined and easy to learn. I'm pretty good at magnetizing, but again part of me wants to keep it simple.
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Is there a thread out there on how to magnetize? I have never done it, but I may be tempted to try it here if it isn't too difficult.
 
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I can see magnetizing vehicle weapons, and maybe terminators. Don't need to buy a second pricey vehicle or terminator (maybe). Can switch weapons, instead. Space Marines in Power Armor? That's looking like a lot or work to save a little money.

Let's step back and take a look at what we are considering here. Yes, the models in the game come with Mk IV armor, which is kind of Horus Heresy signature armor (I guess). But, other, later Marks of armor also existed then. Is it really going to upset the Emperor if your backup meltagun guy, or Heavy Bolter guy are models in a different Mark of armor (same paint scheme) that you got off ebay, or from a friend? Not only is that legal and inconsequential in this game, it's probably more in keeping with the 40K fluff than everyone wearing the same armor.

If one is building a 30K army, get all introspective and mind your minutia. If you aren't, then don't sweat the small stuff.
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svranes wrote:
Is there a thread out there on how to magnetize? I have never done it, but I may be tempted to try it here if it isn't too difficult.


It takes a bit of practice. Fortunately, termines and space marines are some of the easiest things to do it with due to their bulk and lots of wide flat places.

Check out this tutorial. He is using twin magnets, but you can also use a magnet on one piece and a metal plate on the other.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186501-a-magnetic-a...

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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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I've got my set and studied the builds.

There is a "standard" build in the box, which can be used with the scenarios. Looks to give a nice mix of kit.

However, the "other" builds that also exist, and can still be used as options, without mucking around.

If you absolutely have to have every option built in full, you would need...

... a LOT. I've listed it below. 111 Tactical Marines, 23 Terminators and 2 Dreadnoughts.

Realistically, you can buy an extra sprue of tactical Marines for £20 on ebay, some magnets, and just have two different heavy weapons built and two different styles of Sergent, for all the tactical squads. The other options beyond this are reasonably simple to mag.



Per tactical quad:
Nine marines with Bolters
One Marine with Bolter and Vexilla
Four Marines with the different Special Weapons
Three Marines with the different Heavy Weapons
Twenty different sergeants (five different choices for ranged weapons and four for melee weapons)

Per Terminator Squad:
4 with combi-bolter & Power Fist
4 with combi-bolter & Chain Fist
4 with combi-bolter & Lightning Claw
4 with twin Lightning Claws
1 with Heavy Flamer & Power Fist
1 with Heavy Flamer & Chain Fist
1 with Heavy Flamer & Lightning Claw
4 Sergeants (two weapon options plus optional grenade Harness)

And then the Dreadnought has two different weapon fits.
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Slev wrote:
I've got my set and studied the builds.

There is a "standard" build in the box, which can be used with the scenarios. Looks to give a nice mix of kit.

However, the "other" builds that also exist, and can still be used as options, without mucking around.

If you absolutely have to have every option built in full, you would need...

... a LOT. I've listed it below. 111 Tactical Marines, 23 Terminators and 2 Dreadnoughts.

Realistically, you can buy an extra sprue of tactical Marines for £20 on ebay, some magnets, and just have two different heavy weapons built and two different styles of Sergent, for all the tactical squads. The other options beyond this are reasonably simple to mag.



Per tactical quad:
Nine marines with Bolters
One Marine with Bolter and Vexilla
Four Marines with the different Special Weapons
Three Marines with the different Heavy Weapons
Twenty different sergeants (five different choices for ranged weapons and four for melee weapons)

Per Terminator Squad:
4 with combi-bolter & Power Fist
4 with combi-bolter & Chain Fist
4 with combi-bolter & Lightning Claw
4 with twin Lightning Claws
1 with Heavy Flamer & Power Fist
1 with Heavy Flamer & Chain Fist
1 with Heavy Flamer & Lightning Claw
4 Sergeants (two weapon options plus optional grenade Harness)

And then the Dreadnought has two different weapon fits.


What is the "standard build?" I have only seen the squad cards, and a few of the scenario pages, and none of them seem to recommend loadouts. Is it the picture from the back of the building instructions?

If there is a recommendation somewhere in the rules I think that would really help with people who might be new to the hobby and find all the options daunting.

At the very least I intend to magnetize the termies, the dreadnaught, the heavies, and the specials. The termies are the most difficult to handle with proxies, so they will get priority.
 
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Slev wrote:
111 Tactical Marines, 23 Terminators and 2 Dreadnoughts.
And, I was recommending restraint. What was I thinking!?
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Slev Sleddeddan
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It's in the build instruction book. It is NOT obvious, as it's designed to be language neutral.

However, the back page (that Mark posted earlier) basically sums it up nicely as turns out!
 
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