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Subject: What upgrades could the game have if it was re-released? rss

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Jorge Arroyo
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After playing the game yesterday, I wondered, what would be changed if MR would be re-released now? I'd expect upgraded components, but also some functional upgrades that would make setting and playing the game easier...

Now, I'm not really talking about simplifying the rules, just making them play faster... Here are some thoughts. Feel free to add your own:

1. Miniatures (not a fuctional uprage ). Minis for all the characters could be nice, although it can be a pain when hiding and when there is more than one character at a clearing... And what about minis for the monsters? This would require a bigger box, bigger tiles (to fit more than one mini in each clearing) and a bigger setup card, but it would look cool. Maybe a system similar to the one used in Quest for the Dragonlords where plastic discs are added under the mini when more than one creature shows up.

2. A transparent plastic tray that matches the setup card (placed under it). To keep all the monsters and natives in their correct places all the time. I think this would be excellent.

3. Treasures and Spells placeholders (small cardboard or plastic tokens that only say normal or large treasure, and the type of spell. These place holders wouldn't have to be shuffled for each game, and could instead stay in the tray mentioned above. Like this set up would be so fast. For the real treasures and spells, use regular cards: Decks for each spell type, and two decks for large and small treasures.

4. Character sheets where you can record your actions and findings without having to write them down. I really don't mind writing, but it seems games are not made like this anymore, and people don't usually like it... Maybe dice could be used to select the actions (each side would have a different action) but selecting clearings and tiles could be a problem... Maybe there's a way to only say in which direction to move each time... For the VPs, gold and other findings, small wooden cubes or other markers could work fine. Of course, in this case you can't use the other side of the sheet for combat...

5. Tiles that stay together (like in heroscape). This would be quite useful

6. A deeper box . The new tray would require a bigger box to fit everything in its place for fast setup...

So, what do you think?
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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My personal preference would be to alter the preplotted actions and change it to cards: every character receives a set of cards covering the available actions (characters with bonus actions get a bonus card of that type) - everyone plays a card face down, then resolve it one at a time (simultaneously if it's not going to affaect anyone else). You could print the relevent rules and or tables on the cards.

Alternatively, you might have to place your first three cards face down, a la wings of war. The problem there is if you want to repeat an action. You could have two separate cards that say "repeat first action" and "repeat second action" for this.

Minis, at least for heroes, would be good, but you'd need a way to show hiding.

Many rules would need simplifying, like hiring natives, to make it popular enough with modern players. I've always liked the combat and magic systems (!) but much of that could be replaced with combat cards to replace the advanced combat rolls. Combat itself could be done on a single board rather than have every player have their own sheet.


hmmm. I'm starting to get an itchy feeling about making a test version.
 
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Jay Richardson
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Jorge Arroyo wrote:
1. Miniatures

A lot of players would like miniatures, but they are very problematical...

For the characters, the problem is the constant switching between hidden/unhidden status; for the monsters, it's the lack of ANY combat info and the switching tactics during combat. In both cases, miniatures would greatly reduce the appeal of player-designed characters and monsters (which would, of course, not have any miniatures).

Monster miniatures would also cause problems when many are gathered in a single clearing. This happens occasionally in the normal game, and quite often in some variants: in Hamblen's "Deadly Realm" variant getting 15 to 20 monsters in a single clearing is not unusual at all; and one suggestion for making the game more challenging is to simply use two sets of monsters (so instead of one TFD appearing at the Hoard, you'll get two at once!).

When playing with two combined games for a larger (and much more interesting) realm, you could see all 36 Goblins appearing in a single tile... and eventually they could all end up in a single clearing!

Jorge Arroyo wrote:
3. Treasures and Spells

These would be nice as real cards, big enough to handle/shuffle easily. The Sound, Warning, and Treasure site chits might also be easier to handle as mini-cards.

Jorge Arroyo wrote:
4. Character sheets where you can record your actions and findings without having to write them down.

An interesting idea, but awkward to implement. Someone once tried to calculate how many phases a character could possibly get in a single day, given the right combination of treasures, horses, spells, and special abilities... I can't find this discussion right now, but I believe the number was at least 14 phases, and possibly it was closer to 20! And I can't recall if that included the optional weather rules, which at times can really increase the number of phases you get in a day.

Removing the pre-recording of turns is a bad idea, however "un-modern" it may appear: the need to commit your character to a course of action without knowing what may occur before you get the chance to take your turn is arguably the heart of the game... and a great measure of what makes it so fascinating to play.
 
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Derek H
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richfam wrote:
Jorge Arroyo wrote:
4. Character sheets where you can record your actions and findings without having to write them down.

An interesting idea, but awkward to implement. Someone once tried to calculate how many phases a character could possibly get in a single day, given the right combination of treasures, horses, spells, and special abilities... I can't find this discussion right now, but I believe the number was at least 14 phases, and possibly it was closer to 20! And I can't recall if that included the optional weather rules, which at times can really increase the number of phases you get in a day.

Removing the pre-recording of turns is a bad idea, however "un-modern" it may appear: the need to commit your character to a course of action without knowing what may occur before you get the chance to take your turn is arguably the heart of the game... and a great measure of what makes it so fascinating to play.

A compromise may be in order: a plastic coated sheet where you could use an erasable marker for recording info. Pros: easier and cheaper to create one, colorful sheet with visual clues for recording; no impact on (current) game play; allows for gamers to create their own replacement versions (if so desired); avoids the need for extras blocks/coins etc. Cons: You still have to write stuff!
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Michael Barnes
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At first I wanted to jump in and say "miniatures, better chits, more tiles, etc.", the sort of things you guys were talking about, but when I thought about it I realized that when I started playing MAGIC REALM it was one of those very, very rare instances in gaming where I realized that I was playing something _very_ special- it's a similar feeling to playing DUNE or UP FRONT for the first time. I think the game, for all its eccentricities and, yes, shortcomings is pretty much perfect as it is. Sure, there's a lot of upgrades (like the new chits someone did for Realmspeak) that are possible but ultimately the game is where it needs to be as it stands.

Alright, a new rulebook...it'd have to have that, I'm sure we can all agree there. And you guys have some good ideas. Mr. Hamblen, you listening?
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Steve McKnight
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I think the game, for all its eccentricities and, yes, shortcomings is pretty much perfect as it is.

Components: I'm going to agree with Michael here. Magic Realm is a game of the imagination, and I don't think that plastic miniature figures would really improve the special feeling of the game. The current Character Cards have just the right amount of alurement and mythic archetype in the pictures. Grey plastic figurines wouldn't help any.

What would help is a Setup Chart with plastic bins (maybe with some colorful decals on the bottom) that doubles as a counter storage container, so all you would need to do to start playing is to pull it out and then put the monsters back in the right bin when you finish. It's probably a good idea to break the Setup Chart into two parts that could be larger and more distinct, like someone has done with a custom Setup Chart available on the web.

More information on the counters and chits, like Dan Evans' new counters, would be good, I think, although sometimes I like the mystery of trying to remember just what Roar means for my character. (Does anyone actually turn the Sound and Warning chits upside down each turn like the rules say, so you have to search your memory each move to figure out what is in a hex?) And while I'm mentioning Dan's stuff, I use his history pad with the Search Tables printed on it for all my FTF games.

Rules: Now for the rules. Magic Realm needs a beginner game (like a simplified Second Edition Scenario 2) to reel players in. My idea (and I have every intention of actually fleshing this out whenever I get a month of free time ) is that each character should come with only three action chits that describe their capabilities (one Fight, one Move, one Duck/Berserk/Magic/etc. or one Move, one Magic IV, one Magic VI). Weapon length would be an advanced rule, like it was in the First Edition rules - only attack speed would count in the beginner game. No daggers either - you want to kill something, get a weapon!

The effort asterisks on the action chits would not have any game function in the Beginners Game, and there would be no fatiguing. The concept of using the action chits as a kind of damage track is brilliant, but it adds a lot of complexity to the game. Also a day or two or three of R/R/R/R isn't the most exciting part of the game. The beginner game would not allow native hiring (the source of the most obscure parts of the rules) and have only a very simplified Magic system. For example, start with the tiles enchanted-side-up and use only the color magic on the board to cast the spells - no enchanting your own chits for color magic. Only two or three of the more straightforward spells of each type would be in play.

The beginner rules need to be in a separate, much smaller, rulebook, perhaps in the "plain English" format and have a series of pages with examples of play on them. There also needs to be something like my rule summary "The Least You Need to Know to Play Magic Realm" for the beginner game, a three- or four-page detailed sequence of play and combat, for example.

The full Magic Realm experience as we know it would be introduced as a series of advanced scenarios introducing fatigue and wounds, hired natives, the full Magic system (color magic chits, etc.).

RealmSpeak: The game would come with a CD (upgradable over the web) that would allow the owner to play with other players in a RealmSpeak-like peer-to-peer networked environment. Best scores for each character would be kept on a central bulletin board and continuously updated. Sectional tournaments by network play, monitored by local MR gurus (that's us!), would lead to a national Magic Realm champion. The buzz would be intense.

Expansion kits: Oh if we could only recover Richard Hamblen's original ideas for the expansion kits! For starters, though, there could be more types of tiles, more monsters, more characters, more native groups, new spells and treasure, etc. The material that is already out there is an excellent start, but if we could encourage Richard to put his imagination to work to recreate the full vision of his "Once and Future Realm," I'd be in heaven!


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Jorge Arroyo
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richfam wrote:
Jorge Arroyo wrote:
1. Miniatures

A lot of players would like miniatures, but they are very problematical...

For the characters, the problem is the constant switching between hidden/unhidden status; for the monsters, it's the lack of ANY combat info and the switching tactics during combat. In both cases, miniatures would greatly reduce the appeal of player-designed characters and monsters (which would, of course, not have any miniatures).


Yeah. Hiding is a problem. The easiest solution I see is to show the hidden status in the character sheet (a counter you flip, for example) instead of on the board. The problem with the combat info is also important. Right now I use the new counters precisely for that reason: more information. The only solution would be to have minis with the info on the base... but that's more complex (and expensive).... Maybe just minis for the character could work.

Quote:

Monster miniatures would also cause problems when many are gathered in a single clearing. This happens occasionally in the normal game, and quite often in some variants: in Hamblen's "Deadly Realm" variant getting 15 to 20 monsters in a single clearing is not unusual at all; and one suggestion for making the game more challenging is to simply use two sets of monsters (so instead of one TFD appearing at the Hoard, you'll get two at once!).

When playing with two combined games for a larger (and much more interesting) realm, you could see all 36 Goblins appearing in a single tile... and eventually they could all end up in a single clearing!

I think what I suggested before (having one miniature in a clearing for each type of monster present, and stacked discs below the mini for the rest of the same type. Similar to Quest for the Dragon Lords) could actually work...

Quote:

Jorge Arroyo wrote:
3. Treasures and Spells

These would be nice as real cards, big enough to handle/shuffle easily. The Sound, Warning, and Treasure site chits might also be easier to handle as mini-cards.

Even though the mini treasure and spell cards are a pain to shuffle, my biggest concern is set up time. With the solution I outlined (place holders and a transparent plastic tray that matches the setup card) the game could be always ready for play. I think this is the best idea

Quote:

Jorge Arroyo wrote:
4. Character sheets where you can record your actions and findings without having to write them down.

An interesting idea, but awkward to implement. Someone once tried to calculate how many phases a character could possibly get in a single day, given the right combination of treasures, horses, spells, and special abilities... I can't find this discussion right now, but I believe the number was at least 14 phases, and possibly it was closer to 20! And I can't recall if that included the optional weather rules, which at times can really increase the number of phases you get in a day.

Yeah. I have to agree here... Maybe what Derek said, a plastic coated sheet would be a nice compromise.

Quote:

Removing the pre-recording of turns is a bad idea, however "un-modern" it may appear: the need to commit your character to a course of action without knowing what may occur before you get the chance to take your turn is arguably the heart of the game... and a great measure of what makes it so fascinating to play.

I totally agree with you here. I'm not looking for ways to simplify the game play, just what could be upgraded component wise not only for looks, but for functionality...
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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mcknight wrote:
Quote:
I think the game, for all its eccentricities and, yes, shortcomings is pretty much perfect as it is.

Components: I'm going to agree with Michael here. Magic Realm is a game of the imagination, and I don't think that plastic miniature figures would really improve the special feeling of the game. The current Character Cards have just the right amount of alurement and mythic archetype in the pictures. Grey plastic figurines wouldn't help any.

I have to say that even though I enjoy very much the game as it is, if it's ever re-released, it will have some kind of visual upgrade... It's not something that I personally need, but new players will expect it to look more modern... Now, I wouldn't change the artwork on the character cards. I love it!!

Quote:

Rules: Now for the rules. Magic Realm needs a beginner game (like a simplified Second Edition Scenario 2) to reel players in.


I love this idea. And you'right, it would be a great way to get more people to play the game

Quote:

RealmSpeak: The game would come with a CD (upgradable over the web) that would allow the owner to play with other players in a RealmSpeak-like peer-to-peer networked environment. Best scores for each character would be kept on a central bulletin board and continuously updated. Sectional tournaments by network play, monitored by local MR gurus (that's us!), would lead to a national Magic Realm champion. The buzz would be intense.


If ever there's a central server to track starting games and make online playing easier, it would be already great

Quote:

Expansion kits: Oh if we could only recover Richard Hamblen's original ideas for the expansion kits! For starters, though, there could be more types of tiles, more monsters, more characters, more native groups, new spells and treasure, etc. The material that is already out there is an excellent start, but if we could encourage Richard to put his imagination to work to recreate the full vision of his "Once and Future Realm," I'd be in heaven!

This would be so nice I was also thinking that MR would lend itself well to scenarios with specific goals. Some generic chits (with numbers or letters) can be used to hide stuff around the board, and get some kind of story going on... maybe even a campaign

 
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Jorge Arroyo
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nyhotep wrote:
My personal preference would be to alter the preplotted actions and change it to cards: every character receives a set of cards covering the available actions (characters with bonus actions get a bonus card of that type) - everyone plays a card face down, then resolve it one at a time (simultaneously if it's not going to affaect anyone else). You could print the relevent rules and or tables on the cards.


The problem I see with cards is also that you need a way to specify a clearing and tile for some actions...
 
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Matt Becker
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This would be so nice I was also thinking that MR would lend itself well to scenarios with specific goals.


Check out Jay Richardson's Book of Quests available at Nand's website - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/9049/mr00.htm
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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mrb88 wrote:
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This would be so nice I was also thinking that MR would lend itself well to scenarios with specific goals.


Check out Jay Richardson's Book of Quests available at Nand's website - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/9049/mr00.htm


Yeah, I saw it and downloaded it a while ago. I haven't tried it, but right now I was thinking on a different type of scenario, more global (for all the players)...
 
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Joel Yoder
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I have to say that even though I enjoy very much the game as it is, if it's ever re-released, it will have some kind of visual upgrade... It's not something that I personally need, but new players will expect it to look more modern...


This is why it would be difficult to re-release the game in a format that would appeal to a broader audience. Magic Realm has so many pieces and mechanics that are "out of date" by today's standards. Forget the cardboard chits; what about having to write down information with a pencil?
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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I've gotten to work and have made a "prototype" for the setup card/tray:



It's only for the monsters. I'd have to make a similar one for the other half of the card... I think this could really work well (if done properly )
 
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Yoder wrote:
Quote:
I have to say that even though I enjoy very much the game as it is, if it's ever re-released, it will have some kind of visual upgrade... It's not something that I personally need, but new players will expect it to look more modern...


This is why it would be difficult to re-release the game in a format that would appeal to a broader audience. Magic Realm has so many pieces and mechanics that are "out of date" by today's standards. Forget the cardboard chits; what about having to write down information with a pencil?


I wouldn't say the mechanics themselves are out of date. The game is very enjoyable today if you take the time to learn it. Not many games stay fresh after almost 30 years... Cardboard counters and chits today mostly only appeal to wargamers. The public this game would be aimed at if re-released would be more the kind of gamer that buys FFG kind of stuff... And they want minis and nice looking components.

The thing is, if the game were to be re-released unchanged, who would buy it? Mostly current owners and a few that haven't been able to get it on eBay... that wouldn't be too profitable... (unless it's done through some print on demand system). But upgrade the components. Make up some simpler beginner's rules and find a way to remove the pencil writing part and you may have a winner...

What if many people never play the "advanced" regular rules? If the simpler game is fun, no problem. People that want the full experience, have it available too, so everyone wins....
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Derek H
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maka wrote:
The public this game would be aimed at if re-released would be more the kind of gamer that buys FFG kind of stuff... And they want minis and nice looking components.

Is it - and do they? I believe that a unique game will atract its own loyal brand of customers. There are certainly any number of people here who are actually averse to minis. But a compromise solution may be the way to go.

maka wrote:
Make up some simpler beginner's rules and find a way to remove the pencil writing part and you may have a winner...

I agree that a step-wise learning approach is good. I disagree that you need to create a "dumb-downed" game as well.

I find it hard to believe that a game like this could not be published via a P750 system - there must be enough hard-core geeks that would buy into a classic game like this. And, who knows, others might just find themselves drawn into the mystique?
 
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Well, I see the two approaches are quite different, but both are valid. It depends on where the possible publisher wants to aim the game:

1. Keep the game exactly as it is or with minimum component upgrades. Publish it in a P500 like system or print-on-demand. Aim it at a small market.

2. Greatly upgrade the components of the game and add a "simple" version to help new comers into the system. They can play the regular rules when they're confident with how the main game works. Make it visually appealing and make it so that setup time is reduced to around 5-10 minutes (ideas like the "setup-tray" etc...). Aim the game at the general gaming market.

Of course, option two can be done in two ways: leaving the core rules unchanged or simplifying the rules to "modernize" the game. I hope they'd choose the first one



 
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maka wrote:
...
2. Greatly upgrade the components of the game and add a "simple" version to help new comers into the system. They can play the regular rules when they're confident with how the main game works. Make it visually appealing and make it so that setup time is reduced to around 5-10 minutes (ideas like the "setup-tray" etc...). Aim the game at the general gaming market.

Of course, option two can be done in two ways: leaving the core rules unchanged or simplifying the rules to "modernize" the game. I hope they'd choose the first one

Yeah, but how the components are upgraded may drive some rules "modernization" anyway.
 
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Derek H
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maka wrote:
Of course, option two can be done in two ways: leaving the core rules unchanged or simplifying the rules to "modernize" the game. I hope they'd choose the first one

I do not think its a matter of choice. I really, really don't think you can change MR into the version you are talking about. It might be possible to have a different kind of game with some MR flavour, but it would not be MR. From a practical point-of-view I do not see a publisher wanting to create "two games in one", unless it can be done simply and easily (which is not applicable here).
 
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gamesbook wrote:
maka wrote:
Of course, option two can be done in two ways: leaving the core rules unchanged or simplifying the rules to "modernize" the game. I hope they'd choose the first one

I do not think its a matter of choice. I really, really don't think you can change MR into the version you are talking about. It might be possible to have a different kind of game with some MR flavour, but it would not be MR. From a practical point-of-view I do not see a publisher wanting to create "two games in one", unless it can be done simply and easily (which is not applicable here).


There are two kinds of upgrades, just visual ones and functional ones. For example, just by building the "setup tray" I mentioned, if I want to play the game I just have to open the box, shuffle the treasure decks and start building the board and choosing characters. That cuts a minimum of 30 minutes of set up time (if you are an experienced player. It takes me about 40-45). This small change already puts MR closer to the "regular" game market without essentialy changing the game's rules. These are the kinds of changes I'm looking for mostly.

Other changes like maybe cards to select actions, and cubes to track Fame, Notoriety and Gold wouldn't change the game's rules, but would "modernize" the game in the view of the current market. Each character could have a Character Sheet similar to games like RoTH or WoW, with nice artwork, a place to stack as many order cards as phases you can use, spaces to put the cubes, and maybe a track with all the hidden stuff to mark with a token what you find (passages, locations, etc...). I'm actually making something like this to test at home.

As for the visual only upgrades, they are possible without changes to the game's rules. Again, I do not need minis to have fun playing the game, but if you see the trend, right now all the fantasy games tend towards them. Look at the new editions of Drakon and Cave Troll for example... Those games don't really need minis, but there they are...

In MR you could have one mini for each stack of monsters and the rest represented as counters, placed under the main mini. They could fit in the tray/setup card, and they could fit around the clearings when more than one type of monster appears at a clearing. If necessary the tiles' size could be increased to accomodate multiple characters and monster's types. It's even possible to just leave the mini aside if you find yourself in a situation where it's impossible to fit all the minis, and just stack the rest of the counters normally.

I don't see these upgrades changing the game into something different. The main rules are the same, you can just start playing faster and without pencils. And you have a game that could be sold in the current market with some success...

About the simplified rules. Many games come with simple and advanced rules. It's already happening, and it wouldn't be odd... A simple set of rules like the what Steve McKnight descrived would help new players easily into the game system. I think it's an excellent idea...

-Jorge


 
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Mike Urban
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People aren't unhappy with chits as long as they don't look like chits. I printed an alternate-art file for the chits onto sticky paper and put them onto small plastic chips such as are found in the crayon rail games. Red for fight, Green for movement, and Blue for magic. It's quite nice!

Similarly, I put the alert/warning chip onto small circular wooden disks, such as you might find in an 18xx game.

People think _cardboard_ chits are old-school, but if you put the same information onto other materials, suddenly they think 'nice bits'.
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Derek H
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maka wrote:
Each character could have a Character Sheet similar to games like RoTH or WoW, with nice artwork, a place to stack as many order cards as phases you can use, spaces to put the cubes, and maybe a track with all the hidden stuff to mark with a token what you find (passages, locations, etc...). I'm actually making something like this to test at home.

Jorge, I for one would be happy to be proved wrong that MR cannot be given a more "modern" look with interesting components. The simplest way tp prove your case is to construct a working "kit". Certainly, a company like DoW are best placed to give this game the "full treatment". It would be interesting to run your ideas - with working version - past them for a quick cost/feasibility assessment. The only downside might be that DoW do not operate a P500 system (that I know of) and will need to be fully convinced of the viability of the game for a wider audience.
 
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I've designed a mockup card for the characters with spaces to mark all the necessary information with tokens and a smaller combat sheet. I'll print out a couple and some small action cards and next time we play the game we'll test it... I'll post a message with the results

Yeah, I can imagine either DoW or FFG doing something like this. But even then, I'm not sure they'd be able to resist the temptation to change and simplify the rules to some extent...

-Jorge

 
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Darrell Pavitt
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Quote:

Removing the pre-recording of turns is a bad idea, however "un-modern" it may appear: the need to commit your character to a course of action without knowing what may occur before you get the chance to take your turn is arguably the heart of the game... and a great measure of what makes it so fascinating to play.


I have always found it tedious, unrealistic and 99% of the time unnecessary.

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The current Character Cards have just the right amount of alurement and mythic archetype in the pictures


The character protraits were always a subject of derision in my group, they were so inept. But changing them just wouldn't feel like MR anymore.
 
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The Grouch
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maka wrote:
In MR you could have one mini for each stack of monsters and the rest represented as counters, placed under the main mini. They could fit in the tray/setup card, and they could fit around the clearings when more than one type of monster appears at a clearing.

I've wondered if you couldn't get "stands" for the monsters and characters like those for Steve Jackson's Cardboard heroes and stand the "chits" up, instead. You could have a really high-quality illustration on both sides, but still have the same data on both sides as the replacement monster chits someone's made up. Leave the stands off while the monsters are in the setup tray, but out them in stands when you place them on the board.

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If necessary the tiles' size could be increased to accomodate multiple characters and monster's types. It's even possible to just leave the mini aside if you find yourself in a situation where it's impossible to fit all the minis, and just stack the rest of the counters normally.

That'd make an enormous board, though.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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bill_andel wrote:
maka wrote:
In MR you could have one mini for each stack of monsters and the rest represented as counters, placed under the main mini. They could fit in the tray/setup card, and they could fit around the clearings when more than one type of monster appears at a clearing.

I've wondered if you couldn't get "stands" for the monsters and characters like those for Steve Jackson's Cardboard heroes and stand the "chits" up, instead. You could have a really high-quality illustration on both sides, but still have the same data on both sides as the replacement monster chits someone's made up. Leave the stands off while the monsters are in the setup tray, but out them in stands when you place them on the board.


I'm not sure about that, even though it would look nice enough and be very useful. The thing is, the only reason to add the minis is to make the game more visually appealing in the current market, and cardboard counters on stands don't have the same "cool" factor of the minis... For example, you can see how a game like Runebound has changed from the cardboard on stands in the 1st ed. to the plastic minis in the 2nd...

And MR wouldn't even need that many figures, just one per monster/native group and one per character. That's about 56 I think...

Edit: Thinking about this, maybe it would just be better to have the normal counters for the monsters and natives plus a mini to put on top the stack, so the mini would serve only to identify the monsters, but if you want to know how many monsters there are in the group, you only count the counters. Then in a fight, you leave the mini in the clearing and use the counters normally in the combat sheet.

This way if there are too many types of monsters in the same clearing, you can just remove some minis and stack different types together, as it is done right now...

Quote:

Quote:
If necessary the tiles' size could be increased to accomodate multiple characters and monster's types. It's even possible to just leave the mini aside if you find yourself in a situation where it's impossible to fit all the minis, and just stack the rest of the counters normally.

That'd make an enormous board, though.


Yeah, but there are games out there that take more space than MR, so there seems to be a market for epic games that take huge amounts of space to play... Still, maybe it wouldn't even be necessary, or maybe just a small increase would be enough...
 
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