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War of the Ring: Lords of Middle-earth» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fellowship moving through a Balrog occupied Moria... rss

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Jamie Pollock
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Is the Balrog ability to make a revealed or declared company draw an extra hunt over and above the normal rules for moving through a Sauron stronghold? I.e would it be 2 extra hunt tiles for a revealed fellowship?
 
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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Yes, it will add an additional hunt tile due to its ability.
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Torben
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Two additional questions have crossed my mind:

Some abilities and Event cards are only applicable during a Hunt (FP can reduce damage with the Horn of Gondor, SP can draw another tile with We Shall Get It). Some Cards state to "follow the rules for a successful Hunt", the rules for the Fellowship in Shadow Strongholds mention "as if a Hunt has been successful" but the Fire and Shadow ability "draw a Hunt Tile and apply its effects, ignoring any Reveal icon" does not.

Assuming the Fellowship does not need to draw a Hunt tile for a Shadow Stronghold,
1) Is the Hunt tile caused by the Balrog considered as drawn "during a Hunt", so that Horn of Gondor and (in rare circumstances) We Shall Get It can be used?

2) Does an Eye result and the elimination of the Guide and the Balrog count as a casualty for Worn with Sorrow and Toil?
I guess not because it wasn't part of the FP's Hunt resolution.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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1) Yes.

2) No.
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Raf B
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I'm surprised to see a No for the second question. The tile drawn for Fire and Shadow seems expressly designed to convey the theme of Gandalf's fall in Moria, the news of which led Galadriel (or Celeborn?) to comment "you are worn with sorrow and much toil." Whether it is a numbered tile or Eye shouldn't matter for the purposes of applying WWSAT's effect.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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What you're saying makes thematic sense, but the wording of "Worn With Sorrow and Toil" specifies that it is triggered by a casualty, which is expressly defined in the rules as the loss of a Companion to reduce Hunt Damage. The elimination of the Balrog and the Guide by an Eye draw falls outside of that definition.

I will check with the designers. If this is an oversight, they may wish to correct it in the FAQ.
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Raf B
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Thanks, Kevin. This is one of those cases where the Fire and Shadow ability's language may not explicitly describe taking the Guide as a casualty, but evading WWSAT on that basis seems more like a defense lawyer exploiting a loophole for their client, Mr. Balrog.

And yes, they charge an arm and a leg at the law firm of Mordor, Mordor, Mordor & Mordor.


Hooray! It will trigger WWSAT per update below.
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Craig S.
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Krieghund wrote:
What you're saying makes thematic sense, but the wording of "Worn With Sorrow and Toil" specifies that it is triggered by a casualty, which is expressly defined in the rules as the loss of a Companion to reduce Hunt Damage. The elimination of the Balrog and the Guide by an Eye draw falls outside of that definition.

I will check with the designers. If this is an oversight, they may wish to correct it in the FAQ.


Was there ever confirmation on this, one way or the other?
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Kevin Chapman
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Sorry, this originally came up around the time of Gen Con, so it fell through the cracks. I have now gotten confirmation that it should trigger "Worn With Sorrow and Toil". We are looking at updating the FAQ.
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Craig S.
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Krieghund wrote:
Sorry, this originally came up around the time of Gen Con, so it fell through the cracks. I have now gotten confirmation that it should trigger "Worn With Sorrow and Toil". We are looking at updating the FAQ.


Thanks. This ruling feels right to me. Should we infer that any "elimination" of a companion while in the Fellowship (Lure Of The Ring, for instance) is a "casualty"?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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No. It's the language of the Balrog card that's the issue, not the concept.
 
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Craig S.
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Krieghund wrote:
No. It's the language of the Balrog card that's the issue, not the concept.


So losing a companion to Foul Thing would not trigger Sorrow & Toil either? That seems odd...
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Yes, it would. The elimination of a random Companion during the Hunt process is taking a casualty. See page 42 of the Rulebook.
 
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Craig S.
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Krieghund wrote:
Yes, it would. The elimination of a random Companion during the Hunt process is taking a casualty. See page 42 of the Rulebook.


I see. So the issue is that the Balrog is missing the "follow the rules for a successful hunt" phrasing?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Not exactly. The issue is that "Worn With Sorrow and Toil" is triggered by a "casualty". Elimination of a Companion during the Hunt is a casualty, but elimination outside of the Hunt is not. Since Fire and Shadow is not part of the Hunt process (and not intended to follow that process), the wording should have invoked the term "casualty" in order to qualify the loss of the Guide as such independent of the Hunt process. "If the tile is an Eye, eliminate the Balrog and take the Guide as a casualty" would have done it.
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Craig S.
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What about the guide ability of the Hobbits of the Shire? Is eliminating them to cancel a hunt tile a casualty? If so, is it two separate casualties?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Yes, it is two casualties.
 
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Craig S.
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Krieghund wrote:
Yes, it is two casualties.


Wow! OK, good to know...
 
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Torben
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My understanding is that a guide ability will not trigger Worn with Sorrow and Toil. It is all about the following step in the Hunt resolution: taking a casualty.

Hunt resolution:
- play 1 card
- use Guide abilities
- take a casualty
- use the Ring
 
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Craig S.
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tatze wrote:
My understanding is that a guide ability will not trigger Worn with Sorrow and Toil. It is all about the following step in the Hunt resolution: taking a casualty.

Hunt resolution:
- play 1 card
- use Guide abilities
- take a casualty
- use the Ring


According Kreighund's response above, elimination of a companion at any time during the Hunt process is a "casualty"...which makes sense. I agree the rules would benefit from this clarification.
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