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Subject: Help with Forts/Sieges rss

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Edward Leao
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Ok guys, get out your numbskull detectors, because I have a severe case of rules not getting through my thick skull shake. We are having a bit of trouble interpreting the rules for forts and besieging. Let me just give an example: Warsaw holds a reduced RU Army and a reduced RU corps, the fort stands (not destroyed). A GE army is located adjacent in Lodz. What can the army do? Obviously it can attack (the RU units add the fort rating of 2 to the combat--but does the loss factor of 2 for the fort come "off the top" of the total losses taken by the RU?). Can the army also move into the space to siege? If so, what happens at the end of the turn to the RU units if the GE army succeeds and destroys the fort (mainly since they are now in the same space?!?)? I guess if someone could just explain the process to me for how forts can be attacked and besieged I would appreciate it, as repeated re-readings of the rules don't seem to be helping. It seems that an occupied fort can be besieged, but maybe I am reading it wrong and it must be vacant/vacated by force?
 
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Nick Anner
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You can attack the fort. The fort is the last thing that is allowed to take losses. If all the units in the space are eliminated, any remaining loss factors are applied to the fort. if the fort takes as many loss factors as it's strength, it's destroyed. You cannot ever enter a space with enemy units in it, thus you couldn't just walk in and besiege. If the units defending a fort are forced to retreat, any eligible units MAY advance and besiege IF they would be permitted to besiege the fort otherwise (ie, includes an army or as many corp as the forts strength). Hopefully this answers your questions. Have fun with the game it's great!
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Edward Leao
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Wow, that clears it up completely, actually. My brain was starting to hurt! Thanks so much--we are having a great time playing this one.
 
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Edward Leao
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One more thing: this also means that you can never capture an intact enemy fort, right? If so, can you please explain how? This should lay this issue to rest once and for all for us. blush
 
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Donald Wilbur III
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You can't capture an enemy fort intact. That is correct.
 
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Steve
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soldatoj57 wrote:
One more thing: this also means that you can never capture an intact enemy fort, right? If so, can you please explain how? This should lay this issue to rest once and for all for us. blush


Yep, you can only destroy them. If you ever have a chance, you should attack and destroy undefended forts, especially ones that are 2+, regardless of the other things you feel you have to do. You need to be thinking long haul--they're very powerful and any opportunity to attack and destroy them is important for reducing your opponent's defense in the long term. Even in Russia with all the level 1 forts, IMHO you need to spend some time destroying most of those forts for securing supply when/if you advance deep into Russia.
 
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Edward Leao
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Thanks for all the answers folks
 
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Philip Thomas
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Also (as I just learnt to my cost) forts are not units. Attacks on empty forts cannot satisfy Mandatory Offensives.cry
 
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artur zanon
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Hi guys,

1) If I attack a fort and the defense is forced to be retired, then I advance and put the fort under besiege, When I play the next card as operations, Can I attack the fort with the unit that is besieging in the combat phase or I am forced to wait to the die roll at the end of the turn?

2) I attack a fort and the defense is forced to be retired, then I advance and put the fort under besiege, When I play the next card as operations (before the end of the turn), Can I attack the fort with another unit next to the fort (the fort that is being besieged by myself?

3) I know that combat card can be reused if the owner wins the combat. So can a combat card be used several times a turn, meanwhile the owner is winning the combat?, if yes, when the card is definetelly discardted? Can a combat card be kept from one turn to another?

Many thanks
 
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Riku Riekkinen
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Quote:
1) If I attack a fort and the defense is forced to be retired, then I advance and put the fort under besiege, When I play the next card as operations, Can I attack the fort with the unit that is besieging in the combat phase or I am forced to wait to the die roll at the end of the turn?


You can attack. If you activate the fort space for attack and wish to attack some other space, you must leave at least the minimum force needed to siege out of it. That force is considered keeping the siege on. They can attack with the same activation against the fort or do nothing.

Quote:
2) I attack a fort and the defense is forced to be retired, then I advance and put the fort under besiege, When I play the next card as operations (before the end of the turn), Can I attack the fort with another unit next to the fort (the fort that is being besieged by myself?


No

Quote:
3) I know that combat card can be reused if the owner wins the combat. So can a combat card be used several times a turn, meanwhile the owner is winning the combat?, if yes, when the card is definetelly discardted? Can a combat card be kept from one turn to another?


Combat card is discarded when you lose/draw or at the end of the turn. So you can use combat card max 6 times. Note that with "Putnik" you can use it each action round in either CPs or APs phase (not both).

Edit:CCs with a star (*) are only usable in one combat.
 
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artur zanon
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Thank you very much for your reply,

I have now another question that happened in our last game.

One AH corp (1-1-3) entered into a russion fort (defense 1). From then AH's could be suplied tracing a suply line through that fort. Then this unit was attacked by RU and reduced to 0-1-1). What happen in this case? so there is a unit besieging a fort with less strengh than the fort defense.

 
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Timothy Phelps
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It is not the strength of the corps beseiging the fort that is relevant, but rather the number of corps:

15.2.1 To besiege an enemy fort, either at least one
Army or a number of Corps equal to the fort’s LF
must enter the fort’s space during a single Action
Round and then stop movement.
 
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artur zanon
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Thank you very much, Now I see that we did well.

But imagine that an army is besieging, and that army is atacked and reduce to one corp, (being a 2 defense fortress), What happen then?
 
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Timothy Phelps
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At that point the fort is no longer beseiged, so any units that were relying on supply being traced through it would be OOS.
 
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Kevin Elliott
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I just bought the game (haven't played it yet) and am trying to figure out the rules, and I'm also (still) having some trouble with forts. This is what I've gathered from it so far, can someone let me know if I've got it right or not?

My biggest question has to do with the difference between besieging and attacking. It sounds to me like a unit in an enemy fort can either besiege it or attack it - is the only difference between these two (other than how they're actually performed) the phase in which they happen? ie, you can attack a fort during the action phase by playing a card for ops, but if not, you have to wait until the siege phase?

Maybe I'll try and figure it out with an example...say the German 1st Army is in Sedan, and wants to take out Verdun, which is completely empty. Can they either attack it without moving (in which case the fort would fire back on the corps table with a CF of 3), destroying it if they get a loss number of 3 or more; or move into it during one action round and attack it (in the same way) during a later action round; or move into it, do nothing for the rest of the action phase, and besiege it during the siege phase?

If the German army moves into (and/or destroys) Verdun, that means other German units can treat it as a normal space (in terms of movement and supply), correct? (Sounds like this is exactly what rule 15.2.2 says.)

Do you have to besiege a fort if you move onto it? (I know per rule 15.1.1 that you can only move into a fort if you're able to besiege it.) Would there even be any reason to not besiege a fort?

Rule 15.2.3 says: "A player may activate units in a besieged enemy fort space for combat. However, only the units above those required to besiege the fort may attack adjacent spaces. Units in the besiege fort space may attack the fort." Does this mean that if you want to attack a fort from within its own space, you would need two armies (for example) - one to continue the siege and one to attack the fort?

I think that's all... thanks in advance!
 
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John David Galt
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Quote:
Rule 15.2.3 says: "A player may activate units in a besieged enemy fort space for combat. However, only the units above those required to besiege the fort may attack adjacent spaces. Units in the besiege fort space may attack the fort."

Actually that last sentence says, "All units in the besieged fort space may attack the fort." Which answers the question.
 
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Kevin Elliott
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jdgalt wrote:
Quote:
Rule 15.2.3 says: "A player may activate units in a besieged enemy fort space for combat. However, only the units above those required to besiege the fort may attack adjacent spaces. Units in the besiege fort space may attack the fort."

Actually that last sentence says, "All units in the besieged fort space may attack the fort." Which answers the question.


Strange, my copy of the rules (2010 edition) doesn't include the "all"... but if that's the case (beseiging units can also attack), then so be it!
 
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