Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Small World» Forums » Rules

Subject: Catapult Clarification rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Randy D

Wyoming
Michigan
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From the rules about the Catapult:
"Once per turn, you may place the Catapult in a region you occupy to conquer any region that is 1 region away (but not adjacent) at 1 less token than usual. The Catapult may be used to attack a region beyond the Lake, but not over Seas. The region with the Catapult is immune to enemy conquests as well as their racial and special powers. The Catapult disappears when you go into Decline."

About these rules I have 2 points of confusion that I was hoping to clarify:
1. How on earth is it possible to be 1 region away yet not adjacent? I racked my brain on this and it just seemed contradictory. The simple understanding is that it is talking about regions that are 2 away from the Catapult, but then the rules would have simply said that instead of the whole "1 region away yet not adjacent" thing. What is meant here and why is it written this way?

2. There was some question among my group as to how many times the catapult ability could be used. While it is clear it can only be moved once per turn, it doesn't specifically say how many times an attack may benefit from the -1 cost on valid regions. I used to assume it could be used to benefit multiple attacks to valid regions, however, a careful reading of the rules shows that "region" is singular = "...to conquer any region that is 1 away." Therefore, it seems the rules are written such that it can only benefit 1 attack per turn. Am I correct in this understanding or are the rules written incorrectly?

Thanks,
Randy
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
randyd42 wrote:
From the rules about the Catapult:
"Once per turn, you may place the Catapult in a region you occupy to conquer any region that is 1 region away (but not adjacent) at 1 less token than usual. The Catapult may be used to attack a region beyond the Lake, but not over Seas. The region with the Catapult is immune to enemy conquests as well as their racial and special powers. The Catapult disappears when you go into Decline."

About these rules I have 2 points of confusion that I was hoping to clarify:
1. How on earth is it possible to be 1 region away yet not adjacent? I racked my brain on this and it just seemed contradictory. The simple understanding is that it is talking about regions that are 2 away from the Catapult, but then the rules would have simply said that instead of the whole "1 region away yet not adjacent" thing. What is meant here and why is it written this way?

The one region away part is a bit confusing; it should have probably said 2 regions away. Anything adjacent is not a viable target. But everything adjacent to that region is. You are catapulting over the adjacent regions and hitting the next ones over.

Quote:
2. There was some question among my group as to how many times the catapult ability could be used. While it is clear it can only be moved once per turn, it doesn't specifically say how many times an attack may benefit from the -1 cost on valid regions. I used to assume it could be used to benefit multiple attacks to valid regions, however, a careful reading of the rules shows that "region" is singular = "...to conquer any region that is 1 away." Therefore, it seems the rules are written such that it can only benefit 1 attack per turn. Am I correct in this understanding or are the rules written incorrectly?

Thanks,
Randy

1 attack per turn. This is the basic attack rule for each piece on the board. No token (going from memory) would ever be used in more than one attack. Each unit you have is only used once, each special attack is only used once. So once per turn you may "hop over" an adjacent region instead of going through it.

Say you were the shrubmen and wanted to get in forests. And you have enough for one more attack but everything adjacent to you is not forest. If you have the catapult, it would launch you over your neighbors into the next region over - hopefully anotehr forest.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fern Bymob
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Brian is right!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Annemarie Post
Netherlands
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmmm, I clearly have to take a look at the rules again... We always attack with the Catapult more than once per turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
McDonough
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Anny48 wrote:
Hmmm, I clearly have to take a look at the rules again... We always attack with the Catapult more than once per turn.

I agree. We play it this way too. I disagree with the analysis of Randy's original post. I read the "to conquer any region that is 1 away" to mean that as long as a region is 1 away (or more accurately, 1 region between your region and target region), then you can attack it. So, as long as you have tokens left, which I think was the general analysis Brian provided, you can attack allowable regions that are 1 away.

Although Brian mentioned "each special attack is only used once", I believe he is actually stating "each special attack is only used once per token". So, as long as you have tokens left, you can attack regions that are 1 away.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
given that it says "any region" not "one region" we have always played that once you place the catapult you could use it to attack as many regions as possible that require "hoping over" a region to get to, so long as you have the tokens to pay the cost of conquering. This makes it much more important how you place the catapult, to get maximum use from it. Only getting -1 on one attack (even with the immunity on defense) seems quite weak otherwise.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy D

Wyoming
Michigan
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just checked on the official Days of Wonder forums and Philippe Keyaerts himself has confirmed that the Capatult can only be used ONCE per turn for conquest purposes (as in the Small World 2 App).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
randyd42 wrote:
I just checked on the official Days of Wonder forums and Philippe Keyaerts himself has confirmed that the Capatult can only be used ONCE per turn for conquest purposes (as in the Small World 2 App).

wow, that is disappointing. That makes catapult horribly weak. It has some value as a defense, it's like half heroic, which compares well with Dragon master which also is immune on defense. Dragon Master is only usable once per turn on offense but allows you to conquer any adjacent space for one token. It's the strongest single attack in the game. Catapult gives a simple -1 (like several other powers) but only for 1 attack. sure that one attack can hop over an enemy... no wait, it must hop over an enemy, so it's an advantage but a very limited one. In this case Dragon Master is always strictly better than Catapult

Mounted players can often get 2 or 3 attacks at -1 in a turn if they play it right. Same with Giants. Commando of course gives unlimited -1 but comes with fewer tokens.

Without someone giving me a good reason, I'm going to be ignoring this rule and continuing to allow the catapult to be used as many times as possible per turn in my games.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
McDonough
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
randyd42 wrote:
I just checked on the official Days of Wonder forums and Philippe Keyaerts himself has confirmed that the Capatult can only be used ONCE per turn for conquest purposes (as in the Small World 2 App).

Where is his post? I find several individuals reference a post made by Phillipe, but I can't find it.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=206812#msg_206812
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=197979#msg_197979
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Ogden
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DragonsDream wrote:
randyd42 wrote:
I just checked on the official Days of Wonder forums and Philippe Keyaerts himself has confirmed that the Capatult can only be used ONCE per turn for conquest purposes (as in the Small World 2 App).

wow, that is disappointing. That makes catapult horribly weak. It has some value as a defense, it's like half heroic, which compares well with Dragon master which also is immune on defense. Dragon Master is only usable once per turn on offense but allows you to conquer any adjacent space for one token. It's the strongest single attack in the game. Catapult gives a simple -1 (like several other powers) but only for 1 attack. sure that one attack can hop over an enemy... no wait, it must hop over an enemy, so it's an advantage but a very limited one. In this case Dragon Master is always strictly better than Catapult

Mounted players can often get 2 or 3 attacks at -1 in a turn if they play it right. Same with Giants. Commando of course gives unlimited -1 but comes with fewer tokens.

Without someone giving me a good reason, I'm going to be ignoring this rule and continuing to allow the catapult to be used as many times as possible per turn in my games.

Even with official rulings, we play that the Catapult can be used multiple times. It's not fun if you only use it once. It's significantly weaker than Dragon. Jumping regions has limited usability and really only benefits a couple races. It's one of the worst powers in the game if it can only be used on one attack per turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Mack
United States
Menifee
California
flag msg tools
designer
Lefty / Happily Married / Parent of 2 Girls / Christian / Yucata User
badge
Smack dat Ghoulie, Mr. Trolla!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Being a rule clarification for an element from the Be Not Afraid expansion, this thread belongs in that forum.
- - - - - - - - - -
Nevertheless, I believe I can add some clarity to this discussion. The Small World App has already been referenced in the discussion, but I'll go 1 step further and quote the Small World Encyclopedia which states:
Quote:
Once per turn you may place (or keep) the Catapult in a Region you occupy and use it to conquer a single region that is two Regions away (but not adjacent to your Catapult) using 1 less Race token than normal.

There is more written, but that basically addresses the issue being debated here.

Furthermore, I am with many of you in my distaste for what appears to be a "rule change" by the designer, after the fact (and after a previous contradictory "official clarification" by the publisher). The question popped up: "Where is the designer's original post?" Here's what Eric--previously the owner of DoW, and the source for the erroneous clarification (which was linked to above in the DoW forums)--told me personally...

As DoW prepared to manufacture the Designer's Edition & the Pocket Encyclopedia, they were going over everything, and Eric asked Philippe about the Catapult (so there was no "original post" on the forums). It's then that Eric realized that Philippe's original intent had been misunderstood and mistranslated, and that while Eric's own clarification had been based on a reasonable assumption/reading of the rules, he had been wrong. As a result, they updated the answer in the DoW forums, and the text in the Encyclopedia.

On the bright side, we wouldn't have ever thought of the Catapult as powerful (and now disappointing) if its mediocrity had not been lost in translation. Now we've got an interesting and widely accepted variant on our hands. That said, I don't like it any more than many of you, but it is the right way to play: 1 move and 1 use per turn. At your house, with your game, (as always) play however you like.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Cavallius
Denmark
flag msg tools
I hope it is not bad taste to add an additional question in this thread...

One of my friends and I keep butting heads over the catapult as well. He says that with the catapult you can attack a region that is 2 regions away (we agree on that part), and you don't have to own a region that is adjacent to the region you are attacking. I tend to think that you can only use the bonus on a region you were already able to attack without the catapult.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cava wrote:
I hope it is not bad taste to add an additional question in this thread...

One of my friends and I keep butting heads over the catapult as well. He says that with the catapult you can attack a region that is 2 regions away (we agree on that part), and you don't have to own a region that is adjacent to the region you are attacking. I tend to think that you can only use the bonus on a region you were already able to attack without the catapult.

What are your thoughts on that?
Why would you think that? Nothing in theddescription indicates the bonus is conditional. With the catapult you can "hop over" a region and conquer with one token less than usual.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike
Netherlands
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cava wrote:
I hope it is not bad taste to add an additional question in this thread...

One of my friends and I keep butting heads over the catapult as well. He says that with the catapult you can attack a region that is 2 regions away (we agree on that part), and you don't have to own a region that is adjacent to the region you are attacking. I tend to think that you can only use the bonus on a region you were already able to attack without the catapult.

What are your thoughts on that?


Then what would be the benefit of the catapult?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.