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Subject: Master Thorn rss

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DDD Schramm
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Has anyone else found his surge ability almost useless?

After 5 plays of the game as Master Thorn, I have had only one combat where I was able to get it off before the foe did it's damage and still be alive so that it would deal damage back.

Seems broken compared to the other Characters abilities.

Just wondering if it's just me missing something or do other players feel the same.
 
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Dustin
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Hard to get off? Yes
Useless? Not at all

Just gotta buy gear with surges
 
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Mark Biggar
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How does Master Thorn's surge ability work against an on-going power like the Great Dragon's Singe ability. Is each separate point of damage a separate attack or only the initial point.
 
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DDD Schramm
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I guess the other thing I was it requires initiative and 2 surges to be useful and since you still take the damage.

So example of getting it off with initiative 2 rounds in a row and still losing combat.

Monster had 6 Health. First round I triggered Mind Meld Monster did 4 damage so took 4 damage. end of round I had 4 health left and monster had 2.

Second round with initiative and 2 surges 1 magic dam, trigger mind meld monster does 4 damage defeats me....

And this happen in a few combats so hence the feel that it is weak as you have to have 2 surges and be-able to tank the damage they deal.
 
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DDD Schramm
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mark_biggar wrote:
How does Master Thorn's surge ability work against an on-going power like the Great Dragon's Singe ability. Is each separate point of damage a separate attack or only the initial point.

Only the Initial point deals damage to the foe.

Ouch didn't even see that RRG states that abilities that are not combat actions are not attacks so Mind Meld would not send damage back.
 
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Marc Bennett
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I enjoyed his ability. I got an item I think it was a battle tome that had a 2 surge icon and got off his ability quite often
 
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Jason Parham
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So it's hard to get off Master Thorn?

Context is very important to this discussion thread.
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DDD Schramm
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Here is another example:

Fighting a Orc Brigand

Round 1 I cast 2sur,Magic,agility Foe gets Agility,dash, 3 skulls
I get Initiative
I spend surges to trigger Mind Meld
Foe spend one skull to deal 1 damage and takes one damage
I spend magic to deal 1 damage.
Foe passes
I pass
Round 2 I cast 2sur, double, agility Foe casts 3 skulls, surge, double
I get Initiative
I spend surges to trigger Mind Meld
Foe spend two skulls to deal 2 damage and takes 2 damage
I place agility on top of double token
Foe Passes
I Pass
Round 3 I cast 2 magic, double foe casts 4 skulls and double
Foe has Initiative
Foe Stacks Skull on double
In my action I can't defeat Orc with out the double (so I stack the magic on the double
Foe Spends all the skulls to deal 5 damage and I'm defeated.


I can see the intention of the ability to mitigate damage . But only works as long as you get initiative and the 2 surges each round to trigger it then it mitigates the damage dealt from the enemy... if not you get slagged

So its not hard to trigger....
But providing useful results when compared to the other 5 character abilities its usefulness feels weak....
 
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Julia
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True. But Thorn has a mobility ability unmatched, that should help compensate. Also, being combat probably not his best shot at winning the game, you can work more on the other adventure types until he gets better
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David Williams
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My son is playing with him, and from my perspective as his enemy it seems incredibly powerful.

I suppose the first question is to clarify how it works - you seem to be suggesting he needs to survive the attack for it to work. That wasn't our interpretation though - if a monster with 4 health left deals 4 damage and kills Master Thorn, then we assumed that both the enemy and hero would be defeated. He would be forced to rest, but he still defeated the enemy so he gets the trophy and rewards.

Is this wrong? Where do the rules cover it? If I am wrong then you're right, the ability isn't as powerful as we thought.

Assuming our interpretation is correct, as soon as he has 2 surges and his remaining health is equal to or less than the enemy's , he can use it to ensure that at the very least he cannot lose the combat. It was a hard decision as the monster to decide to deal enough damage to defeat both combatants, and at least sometimes it would stop me from attacking at all hoping I would get a better chance next turn.

He doesn't need to go first - if the enemy goes first then it cannot afford to waste a round doubling up, flipping tokens etc to maximise the damage. So even though he might not use it, it's doing an important defensive job by forcing the enemy to rush its attacks.
 
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Chris J Davis
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Orion3T wrote:
My son is playing with him, and from my perspective as his enemy it seems incredibly powerful.

I suppose the first question is to clarify how it works - you seem to be suggesting he needs to survive the attack for it to work. That wasn't our interpretation though - if a monster with 4 health left deals 4 damage and kills Master Thorn, then we assumed that both the enemy and hero would be defeated. He would be forced to rest, but he still defeated the enemy so he gets the trophy and rewards.

Is this wrong? Where do the rules cover it? If I am wrong then you're right, the ability isn't as powerful as we thought.

Assuming our interpretation is correct, as soon as he has 2 surges and his remaining health is equal to or less than the enemy's , he can use it to ensure that at the very least he cannot lose the combat. It was a hard decision as the monster to decide to deal enough damage to defeat both combatants, and at least sometimes it would stop me from attacking at all hoping I would get a better chance next turn.

He doesn't need to go first - if the enemy goes first then it cannot afford to waste a round doubling up, flipping tokens etc to maximise the damage. So even though he might not use it, it's doing an important defensive job by forcing the enemy to rush its attacks.


If Thorn is killed by the attack, then his ability does not trigger. You'll notice that Thorn's ability reads as something along the lines of "after you take damage from an attack...", so Thorn would be dead before he could trigger the ability. There's also an entry in the RRG (I can't remember off the top of my head where, though) that says if a combatant dies before an ability is triggered, it cannot be triggered.
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David Williams
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will565 wrote:
Here is another example:

Fighting a Orc Brigand

Round 1 I cast 2sur,Magic,agility Foe gets Agility,dash, 3 skulls
I get Initiative
I spend surges to trigger Mind Meld
Foe spend one skull to deal 1 damage and takes one damage
I spend magic to deal 1 damage.
Foe passes
I pass


OK if I follow, at this point you have dealt 2 damage and the monster has dealt 1. Mind Meld has effectively given 1 extra damage, and prevented a further 2 damage the Orc would undoubtedly have used had it wanted to. Effectively it's doing something between dealing 3 damage and preventing 3 damage, at the Orc player's discretion.

Quote:
Round 2 I cast 2sur, double, agility Foe casts 3 skulls, surge, double
I get Initiative
I spend surges to trigger Mind Meld
Foe spend two skulls to deal 2 damage and takes 2 damage
I place agility on top of double token
Foe Passes
I Pass


So in a similar fashion, your 2 surges effectively dealt 2 damage and prevented 1. I don't think that's a bad deal for a single basic token.

At this point if things continue like this, you will easily win. The Orc has taken 4 damage and you have taken 3. The Orc has less health, and defeating it when you are only using basic tokens and no items (presumably) would be a very good achievement at this stage.

Quote:
Round 3 I cast 2 magic, double foe casts 4 skulls and double
Foe has Initiative
Foe Stacks Skull on double
In my action I can't defeat Orc with out the double (so I stack the magic on the double
Foe Spends all the skulls to deal 5 damage and I'm defeated.


Huh... why wouldn't you just deal the 2 magic damage and kill the Orc? It only has 6hp to start with.

The Orc's best option here is to do whatever damage it can, and hit you for 4 damage. You are still alive with 1hp remaining.


Quote:
I can see the intention of the ability to mitigate damage . But only works as long as you get initiative and the 2 surges each round to trigger it then it mitigates the damage dealt from the enemy... if not you get slagged

So its not hard to trigger....
But providing useful results when compared to the other 5 character abilities its usefulness feels weak....


Just the threat of using it can make a big difference though, as the enemy must rush its attack and deal less damage. It doesn't have time to flip tokens or double up if it knows you will cast Mind Meld before it can deal the damage. Unless it can do enough to take you both out at once (again if I have the rules correct on this ability).
 
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David Williams
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
My son is playing with him, and from my perspective as his enemy it seems incredibly powerful.

I suppose the first question is to clarify how it works - you seem to be suggesting he needs to survive the attack for it to work. That wasn't our interpretation though - if a monster with 4 health left deals 4 damage and kills Master Thorn, then we assumed that both the enemy and hero would be defeated. He would be forced to rest, but he still defeated the enemy so he gets the trophy and rewards.

Is this wrong? Where do the rules cover it? If I am wrong then you're right, the ability isn't as powerful as we thought.

Assuming our interpretation is correct, as soon as he has 2 surges and his remaining health is equal to or less than the enemy's , he can use it to ensure that at the very least he cannot lose the combat. It was a hard decision as the monster to decide to deal enough damage to defeat both combatants, and at least sometimes it would stop me from attacking at all hoping I would get a better chance next turn.

He doesn't need to go first - if the enemy goes first then it cannot afford to waste a round doubling up, flipping tokens etc to maximise the damage. So even though he might not use it, it's doing an important defensive job by forcing the enemy to rush its attacks.


If Thorn is killed by the attack, then his ability does not trigger. You'll notice that Thorn's ability reads as something along the lines of "after you take damage from an attack...", so Thorn would be dead before he could trigger the ability. There's also an entry in the RRG (I can't remember off the top of my head where, though) that says if a combatant dies before an ability is triggered, it cannot be triggered.


Ahh I stand corrected - thanks for this. My son doesn't like it but he agrees this makes sense.

I still think the skill is useful though, at it does both offensive and defensive at the same time. A fresh enemy which has rolled heavy damage will think twice before hitting him once he enables it, or it will have to rush its attack before having chance to maximise damage. After which Thorn can flip his token or use another surge ability instead. It seems a constant threat, even if it doesn't actually get used.
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David Williams
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OK found it:

Quote:
Combat abilities that have not yet resolved (e.g., the Singe ability
on a Feral Dragon after the dragon is defeated by a hero) do not
resolve.


Makes sense actually, I didn't really question it last night as we just wanted to get on with the game. I had a very lucky start so this bit of 'cheating' helped him catch up. No biggie.
 
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DDD Schramm
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Orion3T wrote:


Huh... why wouldn't you just deal the 2 magic damage and kill the Orc? It only has 6hp to start with.



Dang it we must have forgot to put a damage token on the orc in a earlier round because he had 3 heart tokens in round 3 when I was trying to figure out what I could do.... (Or the opponent palmed one when I wasn't looking )


I'm glad I posted this as now I can see some ways that this Character can work.
getting skills and equipment that pump health and add gold icons for Initiative might just make him very powerful.

 
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Dustin
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In your example. You dealt 1 damage and got 2 shields for the 2 surges. Pretty good deal.
 
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David Williams
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SeerMagic wrote:
In your example. You dealt 1 damage and got 2 shields for the 2 surges. Pretty good deal.


Yes exactly!

And the more damage the enemy rolls, the more damage or shield you get. Because either the enemy will damage you and have it reflected, or they will deliberately waste damage, which seems mathematically equivalent to having it blocked.
 
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Tim Ford
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In our massive play session of 2 games we found Master Thorn to be a lot weaker than other characters combat abilities. His teleport can very good if you are roll through easy adventures that turn into trophies (helps you skip move actions but you do have to replace the skills you are pitching to the exertion from time to time) but if you unlucky on what you are pulling from the decks (getting a lot of quests, running into monsters or failing at skill tests) it doesn't do anything.

Mind Meld was triggered successfully twice I think. You have to win initiative and flip the 2 surge side up (getting the agility token to flip it isn't super helpful as your opponent just throws the skulls at you while you are trying to charge up your shield). It also doesn't mitigate any of the damage so you have to survive the hit to even trigger the reflection. So many times it was worthless.

Sure it gets a bit better if he focuses his gear on more initiative to go first more often and maybe pick up a couple of surge items, but it seems like a really weak play to focus on your hero ability to that extent.

Rather than trying to make a bad ability better you could just get good gear and ignore it. Corbin spends X surges to do X damage. Mok and Lyssa spend a surge to make a test that deals 0-3 damage. Laurel lets you reuse spent tokens and Hawthorne breaks the turn order in combat and also can recast a bad set of tokens. None of these abilities require you to gear up to make them usable.

We'll be playing a lot of Runebound I'm sure so hopefully we'll get enough of a sample to see if we just saw bad luck or a really bad ability
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Julia
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My two cents on Thorn: I don't think he's particularly bad, but I do think it's particularly different from the rest. So far I played 7 times with Thorn, lost the first 5 plays, won the last 2 times., like I had a very steep learning curve on optimizing the strategy. He's able to accelerate a lot on the time table if his teleport ability is often used; this allows him to gain more good stuff by endgame, but yes, it's a hell of a character and needs a lot of effort invested to have him working.
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Marc Bennett
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deathhq wrote:
In our massive play session of 2 games we found Master Thorn to be a lot weaker than other characters combat abilities. His teleport can very good if you are roll through easy adventures that turn into trophies (helps you skip move actions but you do have to replace the skills you are pitching to the exertion from time to time) but if you unlucky on what you are pulling from the decks (getting a lot of quests, running into monsters or failing at skill tests) it doesn't do anything.

Mind Meld was triggered successfully twice I think. You have to win initiative and flip the 2 surge side up (getting the agility token to flip it isn't super helpful as your opponent just throws the skulls at you while you are trying to charge up your shield). It also doesn't mitigate any of the damage so you have to survive the hit to even trigger the reflection. So many times it was worthless.

Sure it gets a bit better if he focuses his gear on more initiative to go first more often and maybe pick up a couple of surge items, but it seems like a really weak play to focus on your hero ability to that extent.

Rather than trying to make a bad ability better you could just get good gear and ignore it. Corbin spends X surges to do X damage. Mok and Lyssa spend a surge to make a test that deals 0-3 damage. Laurel lets you reuse spent tokens and Hawthorne breaks the turn order in combat and also can recast a bad set of tokens. None of these abilities require you to gear up to make them usable.

We'll be playing a lot of Runebound I'm sure so hopefully we'll get enough of a sample to see if we just saw bad luck or a really bad ability


I played thorn my first game. love playing him, although I totally forgot about his teleport ability. the first item I managed to get was a battle tome I think its called, 2 surge and a magic attack. I got his mind meld off quite often. we both lost but it was fun.
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Klaxas wrote:
I enjoyed his ability. I got an item I think it was a battle tome that had a 2 surge icon and got off his ability quite often


Great combo. Just played a game in which he had that plus the Potion Kit and Counter Charm, and was really cleaning house on those Combat adventures. He died at the end but took Margath with him via Mind Meld.
 
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Chris J Davis
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azrael67 wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
I enjoyed his ability. I got an item I think it was a battle tome that had a 2 surge icon and got off his ability quite often


Great combo. Just played a game in which he had that plus the Potion Kit and Counter Charm, and was really cleaning house on those Combat adventures. He died at the end but took Margath with him via Mind Meld.


This isn't possible. If Master Thorn dies due to an enemy attack, then Mind Meld does not kick in.
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Drake Tungsten
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bleached_lizard wrote:
azrael67 wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
I enjoyed his ability. I got an item I think it was a battle tome that had a 2 surge icon and got off his ability quite often


Great combo. Just played a game in which he had that plus the Potion Kit and Counter Charm, and was really cleaning house on those Combat adventures. He died at the end but took Margath with him via Mind Meld.


This isn't possible. If Master Thorn dies due to an enemy attack, then Mind Meld does not kick in.


D'oh! And it's mentioned further up the thread. . .oops
 
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