Recommend
9 
 Thumb up
 Hide
26 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Hegemonic» Forums » Sessions

Subject: Two players, first time rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I finally got my new copy of Hegemonic opened up, punched, and on the board. It's a great-looking game and we have been anticipating playing. It's one of our first full-blown 4X after getting a taste in Pocket Imperium and a very different take playing my PnP of Scythe.

So I take House Marduk, my son takes House Bushido. We keep things somewhat simple, since it's our first game--but we play a full game rather than the learning game because why not? It's on the table anyway.

We grope our way through the first round and get a little familiar with some of the basics. After scoring the first round I had my first aha moment: Do not turtle! You need to spread across those red borders quickly, and as many as you can!

I spent the next round carefully spreading from my suggested 2-player board & start hex, hitting all vertices and grabbing sectors in the neighboring regions. My son spent his time filling in his own region. I also realized I didn't need to build up every location in a sector--that would cost a lot fast, and reduce my CAP I could roll over to the next round.

I'm far from optimized on this game, but I managed to jump to an insurmountable lead at the end of the round. He quickly tried to recover, and spread to the neglected regions.

That brought us to the last X: Exterminate. So now we learned how to do fights in the game. We ended up only doing a few, and they were Martial and Political. I got the better of most of them, though we both lost fleets. I did realize the oddity of political and had made sure to build up (and place sectors) mainly in the green faction.

In the end, I soundly beat him, mainly on strength of that first big scoring round. I won't be able to pull that off next time.

Second fight (I forgot to take a picture of the first).


At endgame:
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark O'Reilly
United Kingdom
Chester
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What were your thoughts overall?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really enjoyed the game. It had been on my radar and showed up as clearance at the FLGS, so I jumped at it. I'm glad I did. It seems this one somehow got passed over and it is a better game than sales or rating counts give it credit for. Again, I've only played it the one time, but it has given a good first impression.
6 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark O'Reilly
United Kingdom
Chester
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I got to get this off my shelf and to the table!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randall Shaw
United States
Kennesaw
GA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"It seems this one somehow got passed over and it is a better game than sales or rating counts give it credit for."

I followed this design from early on and was increasingly concerned when I saw Eclipse was going to market first with huge hype.

I'd hoped Hegemonic could make up for that with its play but too many apparently found it too difficult to easily grok.

That's a shame since Hegemonic is a superb game which will reward repeated playings and is well worth the effort.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm sure we made a number of rules errors (who doesn't on a first play of a heavier game?), but i found that it wasn't terribly hard to grok once you got over the initial worry. As I mentioned in the OP, we didn't bother with the teaching game--we just dove in and worked our way through it.

The player mats are really well done, and there is so much information presented on them, yet easily accessible fairly quickly, it's amazing. The combat was probably the hardest bit to process, and I think I did ok with that;once you get it, again it's not that bad.

I'm looking forward to more plays and I know the strategy will get more interesting as we learn the game and refine our play.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Grad
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sokadr wrote:
I'd hoped Hegemonic could make up for that with its play but too many apparently found it too difficult to easily grok.


Many people didn't think the game was thematic enough, others thought it was too abstract.

I don't remember reading that many thought the game was too difficult to easily grok.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You mentioned your thoughts about Hegemonic flying under the radar. There are a few other threads about this specifically. Generally though, my opinion is that it was eagerly anticipated by 4X players (lots of hype during the KS campaign) but failed to live up to their expectations. They expected a true 4X game - perhaps to provide a different option to Eclipse and TI3 - but were disappointed when it turned out not to so. Word spread quickly and thusly sales never took off.

Note that they were disappointed in Hegemonic not being the next great 4X game. But don't confuse this with meaning it was ever considered a bad game. Anyone who's played Hegemonic, and who wasn't expecting a 4X game, has loved it. As you've discovered, it's a weighty abstract game - and a superb one at that - yet quite different than the classic 4X style game by which early comparisons were made and conclusions drawn.

Unfortunately the resulting niche in which Hegemonic finds itself has never been targeted with a marketing campaign. But players like you continually find this game. I introduced it to my meetup group (mostly Eurogamers while I'm the Ameritrash guy) and they immediately took to it - wanting me to bring it back again. So the word is spreading.

And I think Hegemonic has the staying power required to keep slowly spreading by word of mouth. I expect/hope that as word spreads, someday there'll be demand for another printing - or two. Also, it can't be ignored that a lot of people watch Tom Vasel's (Dice Tower) reviews before purchasing a game, and might make their decision from that. So to provide those people with a differing opinion, it never hurts to post a comment under Tom's video review! Anything to keep the word spreading, right?!



4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randall Shaw
United States
Kennesaw
GA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hegemonic is a 4X game. The players will explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate, as in any 4X game.

Undeadviking called Hegemonic: "The Thinking Man's 4X Game." and he's exactly right.

The design was marketed as a 4X game, not hyped. You want an excellent example of 'hyped' in the genre, look no further than Eclipse.

What Hegemonic was not marketed as (ever, that I recall) was a 'true' or 'classic' 4X game. That aspect was what sold me on the design in the beginning and what turned me away from Eclipse. Hegemonic is not simply 'more of the same old, same old' as regards 4X. And in this regard, it definitely provides "a different option to Eclipse and TI3".

If you are correct in claiming Hegemonic was "...eagerly anticipated by 4X players...but failed to live up to their expectations.", then I'd have to conclude those players didn't pay enough attention: not to the KS campaign, the various videos, the rules, various Geek threads, nor to the designer's blog on the Geek.

What the game was (and was not) has always been readily available for anyone who cared to find out.

Finally, I'm continually bemused by how the term 'abstract' is used in reference to Hegemonic, as though this is something which sets the game well off in relation to its fellows in the genre. I've been playing these sorts of games since well before the term '4X' was originated and I've yet to see one that wasn't 'abstract' to a greater or lesser degree (usually greater...).

Hegemonic is no more abstract than Stellar Conquest, Civilization, Impulse, or Eclipse, just to name a few.

What Hegemonic is is a subtle, brain-burning, and challenging game that has much more depth to it than is apparent at first play.

Unfortunately, many people either didn't make it to, or past, that first play. Perhaps that will change in the future; I know I'm going to continue to do my best to see that it does.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Sokadr wrote:
Hegemonic is a 4X game. The players will explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate, as in any 4X game.

Well, except for the explore part. It does eXpansion well, it does eXploit well, and it does eXterminate well. But it doesn't do eXplore. Thusly I'd call it a "3X" game.

Sokadr wrote:
Finally, I'm continually bemused by how the term 'abstract' is used in reference to Hegemonic, as though this is something which sets the game well off in relation to its fellows in the genre.

Well, because it is abstract. If it wasn't for the back stories and narrative printed in the rulebook, you could just as easily play the game using shapes of different colored fruit on the board with the same rules. Would it be a strange concept? Of course it would. But it would still play exactly the same. That's my definition of an abstract game - a game which can be played exactly the same in the absence of any theme, or no matter what theme you paste onto it.

Don't get me wrong - as abstract games go, it's at the top of my list, or at least in the top three depending on my mood. But it certainly doesn't do theme the same way that TI3 does. Even Eclipse - for all the Euro game that it is - incorporates theme a little more during gameplay and thusly presents itself as a classic 4X style game better than Hegemonic does. And I think that's where Hegemonic lost it's appeal in the early days - it wasn't the classic 4X game that the 4X'ers were hoping for.

And my memory may be fading, but in the very early days of the KS campaign, Hegemonic (at least to my mind) was being billed as the next great 4X game to come - the game that will fire Eclipse. Perhaps I'm misremembering those early days of KS hype. And I may also be misremembering the comments by people who owned both TI3 and Eclipse and were all giddy over the prospects of Hegemonic. Of course my memory is easy to check simply by going back to the early posts here in BGG, or the comments from the KS campaign. But I don't have the energy to do that now, so will claim bad memory if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I get what you're saying that Hegemonic is a different 4X game - mostly for all the reasons you so eloquently pointed out in your post. Which BTW, other than those items I discussed here, I agree with everything else you said and hit spot-on. I also agree with the Undead Viking's assessment that it's the thinking man's 4X 3X game!

Regardless of how it was billed, how it was accepted, and what it actually is, it can't be denied that Hegemonic is a great game and deserves better sales than it's currently experiencing!


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm glad I sparked this discussion. It looked like the Hegemonic forum had kind of gone to sleep for a while.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with the "classic" 4X games. As I recall, there weren't many/any back when I fell out of the hobby in the late '90's/early'00's. So my exposure has been what I've been adding to my collection: Pocket Imperium, now Hegemonic, and Scythe (playing the PnP). It seems Hegemonic is the closest to a full-blown 4X I have, and it seems to me it does all the "X" stages. Explore I think is covered in the draw a sector tile phase, then place it on the board.

It doesn't seem to me the be any more abstract than most other games. There is a bit of a backstory in the rule-book (I went back & read up those parts for fun last night), and I get the space exploration, and battles part in the play. Chess is abstract, Go is abstract, Hegemonic not so much to me. Just my $0.02 on that after the one play & a couple of reads of the rules. Regardless of that discussion, I did enjoy it a lot and want to get it on the table again. This one I think will have some staying power in my collection.

Wrapping my head around the combat rules took the most time, and Oliver's videos helped with that a lot. After having played one game, I am pretty sure I get that part of it well enough--and I think I played the couple of battles we did correctly.

I hope the game keeps spreading even if slowly. It really is a good one. I'd also hope people watch/read more than one review. For myself, I like to see several opinions, both good and bad to get a more complete picture. I've watched a few of Tom Vasel's reviews, but his opinion & preferences don't always completely mesh with mine, so I want to hear from others as well. Perhaps after a couple more plays & a better feel for the game I will post a comment to dissent with his.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randall Shaw
United States
Kennesaw
GA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"Well, except for the explore part. It does eXpansion well, it does eXploit well, and it does eXterminate well. But it doesn't do eXplore. Thusly I'd call it a "3X" game."

Except Hegemonic does do explore: there's an Exploration Phase (termed the 'Expansion Phase' in the rules but still...) during every Game Round, plus each player can choose to explore, multiple times if they wish, during the Action Phases by performing the Survey Action on the Discover card.

The players will gradually turn a blank hex grid into a game map with 'terrain' by their efforts. Turning an unknown into a known. If that's not exploration, I don't know what is.

And, unlike many of its fellows, Hegemonic performs explore well in that any 'luck of the draw' is mitigated by allowing the Surveying player to choose which among a varying number of Sector Tiles he wants to place (including the one he drew). Impulse does exploration in a similar manner except the available options are kept secret.

I'd say Hegemonic does exploit the least well among the four myself but I don't think the game does it so poorly as to say it doesn't do it at all. Far from it.

Hegemonic is indeed a 4X game unlike Quantum which is a 2X (no explore or exploit) or Empires of the Void which is a 3X (no explore).

"Well, because it is abstract."

Exactly my point; or more to the point: all games in this genre are abstract in some manner. I think the scale at which Hegemonic does its thing is what throws people, especially those who like to make ship designs. None of that nonsense here: if you're about conquering a Solar System, by all means, design ships. If, however, you're about conquering an entire galaxy, you've got much bigger fish to fry (and many subordinates to take care of tedious tasks like ship design for you).

Theme seems to be very much in the eye of the beholder. Do I have any difficulty imagining myself the ruler of a Great House vying for control of a galaxy in Hegemonic? Not at all. Quite the contrary, I can even imagine myself as one or more of the leaders of the Three Arms of Empire, but then I've never had much trouble with such, going back to childhood.

As far as the hype goes, I do think you're misremembering. It's quite possible some fan(s) made comments to the effect you recall but I 've followed this game diligently for a long time and I just don't remember any authority (designer, developer, manufacturer...) making any claims like those you mention. What was repeatedly emphasized is how different Hegemonic is compared to others in its genre.

While we do largely agree on the remainder of your post, I will fight you tooth and nail on that '3X' thing.cool
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

1) Well then let's just agree that my definition of "Explore" is different. To me, explore requires you to NOT KNOW which tile you're going to enter next. I.e., you must explore it before you discover what it is. You even help make my point when you said, "...by allowing the Surveying player to choose which among a varying number of Sector Tiles he wants to place..."
You get to choose which tile you're going to encounter next? Huh? That's exploring?
You get to choose where it's placed? How's that exploring?

To me, all the above sounds exactly like expanding - i.e., you become aware of what's "out there" (by virtue of having chosen and placed the tile yourself), so you decide to expand into that sector during a later move. Notice that you're not there yet, when the tile is placed, so you didn't do any exploring to get to it. IOW, in order to get to it, you must already know about it, then you travel there. In my book, that's more of an expansion mechanic than an exploring mechanic. Perhaps that's why it's called the "Expansion" phase when it occurs every turn?

Sorry - couldn't resist! (Your last sentence challenged me). But still, even if you hadn't, my position wrt the lack of an "Explore" mechanic would stand.

2) I agree it does eXploit "least well".

3) And finally, about the abstract thing... I've only been following the game since late 2012, so perhaps I don't go back as far as you, but I did remember Oliver writing that his impression was that TI3 was fairly thematic while Hegemonic was more abstract. (Found it: Re: Comparisons to Eclipse, and here: Comment). Also, in several of those threads back in the day, there's a lot of talk about how Hegemonic compares to Eclipse (mostly) and TI3. I also remember several comments in the KS comments section where TI3 players said they were looking forward to Hegemonic.

I also remember an article that Oliver wrote (how come I feel like I'm talking about him behind his back? I'm sure he'll see this and would love his comments)... anyway, the article was about comparing Hegemonic to the other popular 4X games out there. It is my impression (as I try to remember this article today), that when it was written it was because so many people were asking specifically how does it compare? Many players of TI3 and Eclipse were asking about this new game, "Hegemonic", and wanted to know more. Granted, these 4X players came informed as a result. It's their friends who merely heard about Hegemonic are the ones who I postulate didn't find what they expected and thusly didn't spread the gospel.

Case in point - if you listen to some of the Dice Tower podcasts, there are some comments, when the game came out, that they didn't like it because it wasn't what they expected. They didn't bother to talk about why Hegemonic is such an awesome game outside of the expected 4X construct - they only knew it wasn't the same as TI3 or Eclipse, so they poo-poo'd it.

Anyway, here we are going back and forth, and why? Apparently we both love this game and we both think it's a superb game. So we disagree on how it got there. I'm OK with that.

And oh yeah, I think we're also in violent agreement that Hegemonic is very different from other 4X games out there (yes, for categorization purposes I recognize it as a 4X game) - and in a good way. But isn't this acknowledgement what started this whole conversation?




1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark O'Reilly
United Kingdom
Chester
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does minion games still sell the laser cut arbiter start player token?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quick search of their site says yes. http://www.miniongames.com/store/hegemonic-laser-cut-arbiter...

That actually looks pretty cool. It's going on my Christmas list (gives something small & cheap to go with the list of expensive games. ).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am enjoying this debate between Randall & Barry.

I'm new to 4X--at least in cardboard, I played plenty of Sid's Civ on the PC back in the day, so Hegemonic is enough of all parts to satisfy me. The explore mechanic works well enough for the eXplore X, I do like the random mitigation with having the three choices. The eXploit is fairly weak, but it's there. Regardless of that navel-gazing, it's a fun game--which we all seem to agree on.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark O'Reilly
United Kingdom
Chester
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
claudermilk wrote:
Quick search of their site says yes. http://www.miniongames.com/store/hegemonic-laser-cut-arbiter...

That actually looks pretty cool. It's going on my Christmas list (gives something small & cheap to go with the list of expensive games. ).


Ah, I have a spare one and would of sent it to a fan of the game if they were not available, but would cost more in postage than cost to buy it direct in USA.

I have a mint spare kick starter exclusive foil box in the loft somewhere also if anyone is interested ( it doesn't have minion games logo on the front and the words Hegemonic are in shiny foil)

Postage cost is all I would need.

If anyone is interested, or more than one person is - we can do a random die roll or something
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randall Shaw
United States
Kennesaw
GA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm quite enjoying this conversation, especially our exchanges over exploration.

1. We have to remember each of the Sector Tiles represents an ENORMOUS area. As such, it'd be unusual if the player didn't find something of use (hence the ability to choose the tile and thus the available 'resources'). I had more trouble at first with the 'place the tile anywhere on the board' aspect but then considered the player races represent civilizations whose technological achievements reside at the outer edge of what we can only imagine possible. As such, they could potentially know quite a lot about a given area to be explored, well before they actually get there.

This allows for some interesting/challenging gaming, as does the 'choose the tile' mechanic itself (its still possible to be screwed by a series of unfavorable draws but that's much more unlikely in Hegemonic).

3. "...but I did remember Oliver writing that his impression was that TI3 was fairly thematic while Hegemonic was more abstract."

Oliver also said: "However, in my mind the end result, ironically to me, feels more thematic." So there's apparently something for the both of us in his post...

Yes there's been much comparison between Hegemonic, Eclipse, and TI3; those last being the most popular titles in the genre at Hegemonic's release. I'd just have to reiterate: what did these fellows miss? Did they underestimate their gaming groups? Not explain well enough the differences in Hegemonic? Possibly.

However Hegemonic has pretty much been what Hegemonic is, certainly from well before the KS. When I describe the game to potential players I begin like this: 'Are you familiar with 4X games? Yes? Well, Hegemonic is much different than what you may be used to." It's my responsibility to do a good job describing the game, anticipating to the best of my ability any potential issues, and dealing with them.

If I fail at this, it would be cheesy to then go back and blame the game but that's just me.cool

We certainly agree Hegemonic is an excellent design/game. And if neither of us is convinced of the other's position, well, that's cool. At least we both presented and listened to each other,
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

thumbsup
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bgm1961 wrote:

thumbsup
You can ACTUALLY thumb up the post or the whole thread, Barry. Try the green button with a thumb on it.

More seriously, doing that generates "buzz" on the site too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whizkid wrote:
You can ACTUALLY thumb up the post or the whole thread, Barry.


Who knew?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Whizkid wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

thumbsup
You can ACTUALLY thumb up the post or the whole thread, Barry. Try the green button with a thumb on it.

More seriously, doing that generates "buzz" on the site too.


Sorry for the confusion. That "Thumb Up" icon was placed there to say to Randall,"Got it, and all's good!"

Though, I appreciate the well-intended advice. To be honest, given my experience here on BGG, (easily found out by looking at my avatar section) I'm not sure if you were kidding or not. Still, while I certainly haven't used that green button as many as your 5,213 times (as of this posting), I have used it close to 1,300 times myself. So I'm very familiar with the "Thumbs-Up" button - both for when it's applied to a post and when it's applied to a thread. You might also have noted at the time, that I already did "Thumb-Up" Randall's post directly above - as soon as I read it.

Regardless, I guess I could've simply written the words instead of trying to be clever with an emoticon. (I figured that's why the "Thumb-Up" icon is in the emoticon library, after all)!

So please excuse the misunderstanding. And also excuse my cranky mood right now. It's been "one of those weeks" for me and I've been taking it out here on the keyboard - bad form, I know!


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My apologies, Barry. I should have looked better. I did see that you did not (at the time) thumb the thread or the first post, but I didn't check the one previous to yours.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Laudermilk
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In your defense, I think you had to follow the thread to see what Barry's intent was. Even having instigated it, I still took a moment to grok Barry's response. It's been a great debate--and I think I wasn't the only one thinking "please don't devolve into a 'net flame war...yay, thoughtful debate!"
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Whizkid wrote:
My apologies, Barry.

Really, no apologies are warranted. I sometimes fall into the mode of trying to be clever or cute, when all it does is confuse things more. Combine that with my crotchety mood this week, and you end up with a lazily placed emoticon instead of thoughtful words.

And BTW, in case it came across as slamming, I wasn't intending to do so by mentioning the number of thumbs-up you've given. It shows you're a generous person.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.