Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
55 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » General

Subject: Promises and expectations - first impressions mean a lot rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Josh Stein
United States
Downers Grove
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
TL;DR - I'm very disappointed in my purchase of KDM due to lack of company produced assembly instructions.

So I fully admit to not doing a lot of "research" into KDM before purchasing. It was an expensive impulse buy at GenCon 2015 - a treat to myself (which I allow one of every Con, however this was a first for me not actually walking away with the product). I paid a sum of money that makes me cringe a bit when explaining to the wife, but overall was sold on the game from a brief 15 minute demo and seeing the miniatures.

While delivery was a bit later than I had hoped, the game did arrive a few weeks ago. The real world being as it is, I opened the box and briefly looked inside before putting it aside - knowing full well it would be a bit until I actually got to build and then play.

Well, this weekend I had the time to start reading through the first part of the manual and begin building. I am an experienced model builder - the reformed veteran of numerous tabletop miniatures games - so was more excited than worried about the number of sprues found within the box-in-a-box.

Seeing as how beautiful the casts appeared, I wanted to make sure I didn't screw something up - and was thankful to find the URL posted on the miniatures box: "MINIATURE ASSEMBLY / build.kingdomdeath.com" so, although a bit put off that I would have to either print out instructions from a pdf posted online, or - even worse - use my computer as a visual reference for assembly (photos and/or video), I was utterly dismayed to find the web page reference on the box top, as well in the manual, lead to basically a landing page which showed:

Quote:
Intro
Hello!

We will be posting build guides here shortly.

Thanks for stopping by!

- Poots



How awful. Seriously.

Now the Geek community and KDM fans appear to have done a good job in producing a variety of guides and helpful tips - admiral work I'm sure. However, I did not pay any of them for the game, and that isn't their job. Please realize, I am not a Kickstarter backer - I bought what I thought was complete product, which it is not.

I find it quite irresponsible to ship a game incomplete.

At the very least I think KD should have included an addendum or memo, either in the game itself or in the shipping box, explaining that the build instructions are NOT available yet - and give a time frame for when they are expected to be posted.

That landing page does not even have a date in which that "coming soon" message was posted, so I have absolutely NO frame of reference as to when "soon" is.

I fully admit, I'm a bit in the emotional stage right now - after carving out time to work on this game and then being severely disappointed - so take this post with a bit of latitude. However, I would like to hear from others on their thoughts about KDM specifically, but also in general - how much leeway do you feel comfortable in giving game manufacturers? Is it becoming an expectation that the gaming community will cover for poorly documented or incomplete instructions?

And on a specific note - does anyone know if we can really expect detailed build instructions from KD - and if so, when?

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sam newman

doncaster
south yorkshire
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
mrmcmeowmeow wrote:
TL;DR - I'm very disappointed in my purchase of KDM due to lack of company produced assembly instructions.

So I fully admit to not doing a lot of "research" into KDM before purchasing. It was an expensive impulse buy at GenCon 2015 - a treat to myself (which I allow one of every Con, however this was a first for me not actually walking away with the product). I paid a sum of money that makes me cringe a bit when explaining to the wife, but overall was sold on the game from a brief 15 minute demo and seeing the miniatures.

While delivery was a bit later than I had hoped, the game did arrive a few weeks ago. The real world being as it is, I opened the box and briefly looked inside before putting it aside - knowing full well it would be a bit until I actually got to build and then play.

Well, this weekend I had the time to start reading through the first part of the manual and begin building. I am an experienced model builder - the reformed veteran of numerous tabletop miniatures games - so was more excited than worried about the number of sprues found within the box-in-a-box.

Seeing as how beautiful the casts appeared, I wanted to make sure I didn't screw something up - and was thankful to find the URL posted on the miniatures box: "MINIATURE ASSEMBLY / build.kingdomdeath.com" so, although a bit put off that I would have to either print out instructions from a pdf posted online, or - even worse - use my computer as a visual reference for assembly (photos and/or video), I was utterly dismayed to find the web page reference on the box top, as well in the manual, lead to basically a landing page which showed:

Quote:
Intro
Hello!

We will be posting build guides here shortly.

Thanks for stopping by!

- Poots



How awful. Seriously.

Now the Geek community and KDM fans appear to have done a good job in producing a variety of guides and helpful tips - admiral work I'm sure. However, I did not pay any of them for the game, and that isn't their job. Please realize, I am not a Kickstarter backer - I bought what I thought was complete product, which it is not.

I find it quite irresponsible to ship a game incomplete.

At the very least I think KD should have included an addendum or memo, either in the game itself or in the shipping box, explaining that the build instructions are NOT available yet - and give a time frame for when they are expected to be posted.

That landing page does not even have a date in which that "coming soon" message was posted, so I have absolutely NO frame of reference as to when "soon" is.

I fully admit, I'm a bit in the emotional stage right now - after carving out time to work on this game and then being severely disappointed - so take this post with a bit of latitude. However, I would like to hear from others on their thoughts about KDM specifically, but also in general - how much leeway do you feel comfortable in giving game manufacturers? Is it becoming an expectation that the gaming community will cover for poorly documented or incomplete instructions?

And on a specific note - does anyone know if we can really expect detailed build instructions from KD - and if so, when?



iunderstand the frustration but the game isnt officially released yet, its also a kickstarter game so you cant expect everything straight away. ideally instructions should have been in thebox. I built up my miniatures via guides on the bgg and tbh it didnt even cross my mind they were missing since the guides online are great and most likely better than any printed ina manualdue to videos etc.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sion Zris
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
mb
I hear you. I was stunned when i read that as well.
Though i also didn't see it as much of a bother. Most of them you don't even need an instruction, especially the start survivors and lion, even if you are, like me, completely new to this. The start survivors have numbered parts it's just sticking together some 6 pieces^^

Also please note: you preordered. So expect not everything will be ready, I am more bothered by typos in the manual than anything else.

Here's a quote for you:
Quote:
Build Guides
I guess I should have been clear that my intent was to have these ready for our full retail release. Kickstarter and pre-orders are still sorta... in that grey "BEFORE" area. (If that makes any sense.) I have been prioritizing my time managing fulfillment and bakcer / customer support. I've been dying inside to get these guides online for everyone! I greatly underestimated just how much of my time was going to be needed during the fulfillment process. Its been INSANE around here. In a good way! But still!

Next week I'll reach out to the creators of some of the better build guides I've seen online and with their permission add them to the Build area of the site.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
anthony
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with the OP.
I will state though that I did build all of my miniatures with very little guidance and the only miniature that caused me to curse (a great deal) was the Phoenix so far (I am yet to build many of the armour kits). The miniatures are not that difficult for the most part (especially for anyone with any experience with miniatures).

These miniatures have been available to them (in various states) long enough to produce some simple assembly instructions, kickstarter/preorder game or not. Even some basic annotated pictures of the miniatures would have been more acceptable than nothing at all for those that either do not have a miniatures background or otherwise find miniatures difficult to build.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jam Warrior
msg tools
It's a disappointment to be sure. Not so bad for the starting stuff but with later models it seems even the best guides are often unsure or as to where some bits are supposed to go.

But this is a crazy one man passion project that isn't 'officially' released yet, so stuff like this is going to happen.

The price you paid at GenCon, eye watering though it may be, was still a discounted pre-release price. Things like this are why you got that discount.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Lamprey
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am not an avid modeler at all but, I do have my experiences with it. KDM has a lot of minis to put together and I have yet to assemble the Phoenix but, overall, I did not find anything too difficult to understand. I believe I did reference the internet for the Butcher and the The Hand but really just for one piece or something small...

There was only one mini that gave me trouble and it was a piece of cloth for one of the starting survivors... The bearded one in the action stance. There was this extraneous piece of cloth for his waist and I could not for the life of me suss out where or how it was placed. That took a bit.

Other than that, I understand that this can be very frustrating. For me, my excitement for the game outweighed these little eccentricities and I found building the models a joy. I'd day my biggest disappointment with the entire thing is the insert. From an organizational and design stand point, it really fails for me. I had to find a way to make that work and I don't expect that the insert will hold up much longer anyway as it is already cracking. I think for the price point of the game, this should have been better.

You have a right to be a little annoyed. I knew building the models would be an undertaking and I would have to reference some external sources so I wasn't too miffed about it. I'm sure once you do get everything together, you will love the game enough to forgive it!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United States
flag msg tools
mbmb
I have not bought other plastic miniatures (or metal or resin ones, for that matter) that came with build instructions. Is this something that everyone was expecting? I understand the disappointment since there's the build URL in the box, but I wasn't really expecting them to begin with, and have assembled all of the monsters (minus the hands on the Phoenix) without any trouble by looking at pictures of them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike H
msg tools
Here's the three quotes based around the online guides;

Quote:
We do not have official assembly guides ready yet. This whole… fulfillment thing happened A LOT FASTER then myself or my logistics partners estimated.


Quote:
Build Guides were always meant for retail release. I was scheduled to work on them as of last week, however resolving tickets from bakcers, ensuring logistics companies do what we are paying them to do and packing the rest of Wave 1 takes priority. If I were to stop and finish the build guides, thats around 100 packages / issues that do not get resolved per day. And no, hiring someone to just "fix it" it does not always work out. I am the boss, the buck stops with me. They will go up when I am ready to post them.


Quote:
I guess I should have been clear that my intent was to have these ready for our full retail release. Kickstarter and pre-orders are still sorta... in that grey "BEFORE" area. (If that makes any sense.) I have been prioritizing my time managing fulfillment and bakcer / customer support. I've been dying inside to get these guides online for everyone! I greatly underestimated just how much of my time was going to be needed during the fulfillment process.


I'm sad to see you're disappointed about them not being online. That being said despite having not assembled miniatures in about 12 years, and only assembling basic models at that, I went ahead and started building anyway. I used pictures from the official KD site, or KS page, as reference and found these models to be a joy to construct and had little to no trouble with them. Adam did an amazing job deconstructing the model to make it as easy as possible to assemble.

The only parts I had trouble with were the shoulder pads of The Hand, more due to the size of the pieces though, and The Watchers hanging lanterns, due to the fact that you have to trim down the plastic to get them to socket into the holes (a concept I'd not really done before). I still haven't put the hands on the wings of the Phoenix but I am happy to wait for the official instructions for that part as it looks fine without them for now.

EDIT: Does GW stuff come with instructions these days? Because they never used to when I bought them years ago.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike H
msg tools
jwreschnig wrote:
jamwarrior wrote:
But this is a crazy one man passion project that isn't 'officially' released yet, so stuff like this is going to happen. The price you paid at GenCon...


... a convention open to the general public, where people were exchanging money and receiving the game?

At the the point you're taking cash and giving product to anyone who walks up, the game is released. "Officially" doesn't mean anything.


You couldn't buy the game at Gencon, you could preorder the game on the site.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike H
msg tools
jwreschnig wrote:
CowardlyHero wrote:
jwreschnig wrote:
jamwarrior wrote:
But this is a crazy one man passion project that isn't 'officially' released yet, so stuff like this is going to happen. The price you paid at GenCon...


... a convention open to the general public, where people were exchanging money and receiving the game?

At the the point you're taking cash and giving product to anyone who walks up, the game is released. "Officially" doesn't mean anything.


You couldn't buy the game at Gencon, you could preorder the game on the site.

That doesn't really help the case, since everybody could preorder online, so it's an even more "general public" receiving the game via that.

Look: The game shipped before a part that a lot of people need to play it was done. Don't pretend otherwise.


I'm not pretending otherwise, I was simply informing you that you made an incorrect statement that people were buying the game at Gencon.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sion Zris
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
mb
I am gonna be honest here, there were 2 models so far that NEED a guide. The Phoenix (the hands are already numbered! just throw a picture out there already) and the watcher (those lanterns....). Everything else was straight forward. I personally didn't really know what i was getting into (for good or bad) but i expected that there were no build instructions at all, since many models are of the kind "build what you want, not what we want". An that belief held true for the armor sets.
To make it more clear: i didn't buy lego, i bought models.

Edit: I have everything assembled needed to clear the game. Armor sets are bonus an i don't count those (though even they are straight forward).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Buckley
msg tools
jwreschnig wrote:
CowardlyHero wrote:
That being said despite having not assembled miniatures in about 12 years, and only assembling basic models at that, I went ahead and started building anyway. I used pictures from the official KD site, or KS page, as reference and found these models to be a joy to construct and had little to no trouble with them... I still haven't put the hands on the wings of the Phoenix but I am happy to wait for the official instructions for that part as it looks fine without them for now.


So you've had "no trouble" except for the details on the phoenix, consisting of 29 tiny pieces each with a specific unmarked hole some of which are a pain to align even when you know where they go, plus the fact you've got dozens of miniatures you didn't even try to assemble yet.

No trouble at all!


Yeah, the Phoenix is a bitch. But in about half the time the OP spent typing out his "emotional" complaint regarding the lack of official build instructions for a pre-release product, he could have easily found any of a handful of user-made build guides on that, or various other of the very few complex models in the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
scott Murray
Australia
Ridgewood
West Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jwreschnig wrote:
CowardlyHero wrote:
That being said despite having not assembled miniatures in about 12 years, and only assembling basic models at that, I went ahead and started building anyway. I used pictures from the official KD site, or KS page, as reference and found these models to be a joy to construct and had little to no trouble with them... I still haven't put the hands on the wings of the Phoenix but I am happy to wait for the official instructions for that part as it looks fine without them for now.


So you've had "no trouble" except for the details on the phoenix, consisting of 29 tiny pieces each with a specific unmarked hole some of which are a pain to align even when you know where they go, plus the fact you've got dozens of miniatures you didn't even try to assemble yet.

No trouble at all!


Nope. No trouble at all. Yay for youtube!!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sion Zris
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
mb
TimCAD wrote:
jwreschnig wrote:
CowardlyHero wrote:
That being said despite having not assembled miniatures in about 12 years, and only assembling basic models at that, I went ahead and started building anyway. I used pictures from the official KD site, or KS page, as reference and found these models to be a joy to construct and had little to no trouble with them... I still haven't put the hands on the wings of the Phoenix but I am happy to wait for the official instructions for that part as it looks fine without them for now.


So you've had "no trouble" except for the details on the phoenix, consisting of 29 tiny pieces each with a specific unmarked hole some of which are a pain to align even when you know where they go, plus the fact you've got dozens of miniatures you didn't even try to assemble yet.

No trouble at all!


Yeah, the Phoenix is a bitch. But in about half the time the OP spent typing out his "emotional" complaint regarding the lack of official build instructions for a pre-release product, he could have easily found any of a handful of user-made build guides on that, or various other of the very few complex models in the game.


"A good community is worth more than dedicated staff"

Edit: *wave* hi Tim! Love your comic! (you are at fault i own this game now! at least that's what i tell my wife!)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike H
msg tools
Quote:
So you've had "no trouble" except for the details on the phoenix, consisting of 29 tiny pieces each with a specific unmarked hole some of which are a pain to align even when you know where they go, plus the fact you've got dozens of miniatures you didn't even try to assemble yet.

No trouble at all!


You come here looking for someone to argue with or something?

You know why I had no trouble with it? Because I didn't try. I assembled the bulk of the model and then I decided that while I could most likely put many of these hands into different sockets and it would not really make a difference I'd much rather wait for the instructions and put them where they were intended to go.

This has not prevented me from playing the game, I don't look at the model and decide not to play or drop to the floor weeping because the tiny hands are not on it.

Clearly I look at it from a different perspective than you do however.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott YahNotHappening
United States
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmb
Yah, I was surprised to find their build website was empty. Luckily all of the minis that are needed for the first few fights are on a single sprue. As a complete noob, I managed to figure it out, but it would have been nice to have an official guide to building those.

I'm willing to overlook the lack of a guide based solely how badass the game is though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phoenix Bird
Antarctica
msg tools
mbmbmb
I can certainly understand your point of view and was disappointed myself at the Build page.

All you need to start playing miniatures wise is what is on the prologue sprue and those look simple enough to assemble.

You can always use tokens or proxies to substitute for any KD:M miniatures as their only game function is gorgeous meeple.

If you do want to start assembling miniatures there are a number of guides and videos out there and the people here will always take the time to help anyone with their questions.

The latest official word was:

“Build Guides I guess I should have been clear that my intent was to have these ready for our full retail release. Kickstarter and pre-orders are still sorta... in that grey "BEFORE" area. (If that makes any sense.) I have been prioritizing my time managing fulfillment and bakcer / customer support. I've been dying inside to get these guides online for everyone! I greatly underestimated just how much of my time was going to be needed during the fulfillment process. Its been INSANE around here. In a good way! But still!
Next week I'll reach out to the creators of some of the better build guides I've seen online and with their permission add them to the Build area of the site. [31 October 2015]”


So you can see the choice was to have your game delivered to you earlier without a build guide or to wait till later for him to finish the build guides.

If you are buying a retailed product from a retailer, have high standards and don’t take any crap. If the game’s designer is providing you with a pre-release copy ahead of retail then maybe it’s reasonable to lower your expectations.

Having been with this project since about 2010 my standards have been exceeded by this project and if one thing had to fall short I would chose something like the Build Guides that do not in any way affect my gameplay.

KD:M has a high resale value both as a complete box and as parts so if you wanted to try and get your money back it would be easy for you to do so.

I hope you are happy in whatever choice you make.

Phoenix.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike H
msg tools
I never came here to invalidate Josh. The first part of my original post was to quote Adam on the status of the guide, like Josh asked, and then I decided to put down my opinion of the model assembly. I see now that I shouldn't offer up such things as it may be seen as attempting to invalidate someones opinion. Josh if you read this and you're offended by what I wrote then I am sorry.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Handley
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CowardlyHero wrote:
Here's the three quotes based around the online guides;

Quote:
We do not have official assembly guides ready yet. This whole… fulfillment thing happened A LOT FASTER then myself or my logistics partners estimated.


Quote:
Build Guides were always meant for retail release. I was scheduled to work on them as of last week, however resolving tickets from bakcers, ensuring logistics companies do what we are paying them to do and packing the rest of Wave 1 takes priority. If I were to stop and finish the build guides, thats around 100 packages / issues that do not get resolved per day. And no, hiring someone to just "fix it" it does not always work out. I am the boss, the buck stops with me. They will go up when I am ready to post them.


Quote:
I guess I should have been clear that my intent was to have these ready for our full retail release. Kickstarter and pre-orders are still sorta... in that grey "BEFORE" area. (If that makes any sense.) I have been prioritizing my time managing fulfillment and bakcer / customer support. I've been dying inside to get these guides online for everyone! I greatly underestimated just how much of my time was going to be needed during the fulfillment process.


I'm sad to see you're disappointed about them not being online. That being said despite having not assembled miniatures in about 12 years, and only assembling basic models at that, I went ahead and started building anyway. I used pictures from the official KD site, or KS page, as reference and found these models to be a joy to construct and had little to no trouble with them. Adam did an amazing job deconstructing the model to make it as easy as possible to assemble.

The only parts I had trouble with were the shoulder pads of The Hand, more due to the size of the pieces though, and The Watchers hanging lanterns, due to the fact that you have to trim down the plastic to get them to socket into the holes (a concept I'd not really done before). I still haven't put the hands on the wings of the Phoenix but I am happy to wait for the official instructions for that part as it looks fine without them for now.

EDIT: Does GW stuff come with instructions these days? Because they never used to when I bought them years ago.


GW stuff in general has instructions these days. Kits by Privateer Press, like their larger models and warjacks do. The rest do not. Rackham never did with their kits.

I would say that very detailed assembly guides are more of a modern feature.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike H
msg tools
Quote:
GW stuff in general has instructions these days. Kits by Privateer Press, like their larger models and warjacks do. The rest do not. Rackham never did with their kits.

I would say that very detailed assembly guides are more of a modern feature.


Thanks for that, been a while since I bought mini stuff...GW was still making metal products back then.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Handley
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well 10 years ago when I worked in a GW store for 3 years, some kits did, others didn't. Mainly big plastic kits like tanks etc did i.e. the stuff that was easy to make CAD at the time. Other kits lacked them, and others did if they were newer or popular (Space Marines).

PP has instructions on the rear of boxes for warjacks, and warbeasts if plastic. Otherwise typically none for smaller things.

Mantic's big releases don't it seems (Deadzone didn't and that was a KS game).

If we look at the minis by Wyrd for Malifaux, they do, but these are not just instructions you can knock up over night. There is a lot of editing to go on in the layout. Which frame of view do you choose? How many separate key stages are there? For these instructions to be meaningful they have to be perfect, and done ready for general release. Sorry to say, but as KS/preorder guys, we don't get that luxury.

Thing is, given these are hobby miniatures, you should expect to at almost every stage to do some dry fitting. Use some blu tac. Try out the joints etc. I will admit the hands on the Phoenix were a bugger to fit, it took some time. But each piece was dry fitted, before I applied glue.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lester Dizon
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You admittedly didn't do much research into the game which is fair, but it might help to put things in perspective. This is a game that was three years overdue. People have been waiting 150+ weeks for it to arrive. I think the majority of the people that have been following its progress since it Kickstarted are happy to have it in hand and work out the details of the build on their own rather than wait for Poots to have time to create the guides. Part of my day job is writing documentation. It's a time consuming PITA. Then the documentation needs to get proofed and tested because, gods forbid, if there's an error and someone fucks up their build because of it, how many more complaints and tickets will there be?

Also, judging by the quality of production surrounding this game, Poots is a perfectionist and he's likely to release the most beautiful build guides your eyes will ever look upon.

I'm not one of those people that Kickstarted this game. I bought a pre-order copy in October. I was well aware that this is a project designed, produced, and managed by one man and his wife. I expected there to be some issues with documentation and production. What I did not expect was how beautiful this game and its packaging would be. This would be an impressive package even from a larger manufacturer like FFG. But it's not, it's one dude and his wife.

So many games from larger manufacturers have errata and community-made resources, FAQs, etc. I'm not sure why KD:M needs to be singled out as being "awful" and "irresponsible".

TL;DR - Doesn't really bother me. This is impressive as is and I'm happy to reference community resources like I do for just about every other game I play.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Nudi
United States
Rockville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Both sides of the argument have valid points.

Delivery of a product with broken references and missing information certainly doesn't make a great first impression. I can understand the dissatisfaction in receiving a partially completed project as expressed by the OP.

On the flip side, this is a smaller venture without the financial or infrastructur(al?) backing of a big name maker. Everyone following this knows that Adam is a perfectionist and he manifests that in a way that other perfectionists do when they run out of time and can't get to something: he ignores it (see Kickstarter updates and the generally topic of this thread). I don't mean that as a harsh criticism, nor do I intend it as an excuse. Where this project has gone from where it started is simply amazing and I'm convinced of Adam's good intent.

All argument aside about preorder or production, the state of the project speaks for itself. The game is very playable and the miniatures can be assembled with a few minor fiddly bits and items that need to be assembled in a particular order. The core as a whole is in good shape, but it isn't 100% ready for more mainstream gamers.

I'm not a big model game player (not at all in fact unless you count Descent and the like), but KD sucked me in from the Kickstarter. I do have an engineering background, even though I don't do any work in that field, and that certainly helped. However, with some patience one can assemble most of these models intuitively (again, with a few exceptions like that feather and hair/clothing strap on Intimacy). As others have mentioned and posted here there are some great tutorials out on the web already.

At the end of the day, Adam wanted to get this product out to folks because they had waited so long and the core was certainly in good enough shape to be played, even if we need to rely upon the community for some help at this time (assembly help, errata and interpretation, etc).

Adam shouldn't be let off the hook for the parts of this project that have been a bit sloppy or disappointing, but he has had to make some very tough decisions and at the end of the day, seeing what I have in hand, I'm glad he pulled the trigger now. A person with his traits could easily have dragged this project out another six months. Instead, I've had over a hundred hours of fun gaming time and that's all and more than I could have hoped for from this project.

Hopefully both sides, fans of the game and folks that had hoped for more, can accept the good while acknowledging the bad and work together on this site and others to make things better for the next wave of gamers (as well as ourselves). In game terms, Collective Toil with less of the Bone Witch (even though Accept the Darkness is clearly better).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Wirtz
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It was really irritating, but you don't actually need to build anything to play the game. If you're impatient and/or good at building, you can go ahead. If not, you're not getting hurt by waiting.

However, I don't agree that Adam didn't have enough time- the project was hugely overdue and he's had parts renders for a long time now. He probably should have found some time to put those together instead of working on further expansions for a bit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Nudi
United States
Rockville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
spiralingcadaver wrote:
It was really irritating, but you don't actually need to build anything to play the game. If you're impatient and/or good at building, you can go ahead. If not, you're not getting hurt by waiting.

However, I don't agree that Adam didn't have enough time- the project was hugely overdue and he's had parts renders for a long time now. He probably should have found some time to put those together instead of working on further expansions for a bit.


Nick, that's a fair comment about Adam not having enough time. More, I believe Adam is choosing where to put his time and this (build guides) clearly isn't getting as much of a priority as other work that they're doing, for better or for worse. From a business perspective, he does need to keep the company afloat and that involves expansions and sales. From a consumer happiness perspective, he needs to deliver help and guides to make sure that the experience is positive.

When Adam invests time in one aspect the other lacks for that time. Thus the tough decisions that he's had to make on where and how to spend his endeavors.

Again, I don't think anyone can excuse Adam or any project for not having the resources available to complete all of the required goals that they set out. But again, I support what has come out so far while acknowledging the shortcomings and the criticisms of those that were hoping for more. I do believe that the unofficial supplemental help of folks on these forums can help fill the gaps in undelivered or ambiguous content, though, whereas core gameplay seems to be fairly solid. That keeps the longterm outlook on this project and future expansions bright in my mind.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.