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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » General

Subject: Jean Grey question. rss

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William
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OK, I was playing the transform citizens into demons scheme. It tells you to add jean grey to the villain deck and her cost becomes her attack.

I randomly chose the x-men first class adversary group and added it to my villain deck. That group includes a version of jean grey.

Since that card has no cost, do I consider her attack 0? Or should I use her printed attack value in this instance?

The scheme says all jean grey cards.

Thanks
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Bert McCloud
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Rules as written - you would do as you suggest following the fact that the scheme says all jean grey cards.

Rules as intended - you wouldn't count the adversary. I personally think it's quite clear that it's intended to be the hero cards that you are considering with respect to the scheme.

Depends just how strict you want to be to RAW.

Edit: my reasoning for this is because at the time of creation they had absolutely no idea that there would be future non-hero cards of Jean grey.
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Andrew Baldwin
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I tend to side towards the "add the adversary's attack to the number of demon goblins" and count her against the plot if she escapes, just to make it a little harder.
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Ovi Matteo
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The scheme applies only to the 14 Jean Grey Hero cards. The scheme is part of the base game Dark City expansion which obviously appeared before the Villains base game that contains the X-Men First Class villain group, therefor it should not reference cards in future sets.
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Josh Worley
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Ovidutz wrote:
The scheme applies only to the 14 Jean Grey Hero cards. The scheme is part of the base game which obviously appeared before the Villains base game that contains the X-Men First Class villain group, therefor it should not reference cards in future sets.


Actually Dark City, but the overall thought is still correct.
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William
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Ovidutz wrote:
The scheme applies only to the 14 Jean Grey Hero cards. The scheme is part of the base game which obviously appeared before the Villains base game that contains the X-Men First Class villain group, therefor it should not reference cards in future sets.


I understand why you might feel this way. But, I'm not so sure that previous cards should not effect future card sets. That to me is part of the fun.

I always lean toward what is written. I usually give "intent" less weight.

Especially, since it's not always clear what the designer intended. In this case maybe the intent is to take the text literally. I don't know.
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Aaron Gray
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vikingbill71 is on to something, actually. The advent of Cross-Dimensional Rampage does kind of make this interpritation cloudy, since it says to use all types of cards that refer to a character. This is not a case of CDR but I think that the same rules apply, personally.
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Ovi Matteo
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The scheme refers to the cost of the cards. The villain cards have no cost and therefor you would actually make the game easier.

Let's also look at the numbers:
8 scheme twists
14 Jean Grey hero cards
4 demon queens escape means losing the game

I'd assume there is a strong relationship between these numbers to make the game balanced. At some point maybe someone asked this question:

Okay, so we have 14 demon queens. How many should escape in order for the players to lose?

 
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Sean Riley
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BertMcCloud wrote:
Rules as written - you would do as you suggest following the fact that the scheme says all jean grey cards.

Rules as intended - you wouldn't count the adversary. I personally think it's quite clear that it's intended to be the hero cards that you are considering with respect to the scheme.

Depends just how strict you want to be to RAW.


Everything said and I just come back to this. Intended Vs. Written.

How strict do you want to be. This would be one of those things were you would make the ruling on it before you play. Do you want to make it a bit harder? a bit easier? play it as it should be intended?

I can justify either interpretation of it.

Tournament ruling would probably lean toward RAW.

Ovidutz wrote:
The scheme applies only to the 14 Jean Grey Hero cards. The scheme is part of the base game which obviously appeared before the Villains base game that contains the X-Men First Class villain group, therefor it should not reference cards in future sets.


True, this set didn't exist when Dark City came out but Dark City existed when Villains came out. For the most part, many of the schemes and cards are written carefully with that in mind. Some scenarios just slipped through the cracks possibly intentionally, possibly not.
 
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Dave Roy
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az933k wrote:


Ovidutz wrote:
The scheme applies only to the 14 Jean Grey Hero cards. The scheme is part of the base game which obviously appeared before the Villains base game that contains the X-Men First Class villain group, therefor it should not reference cards in future sets.


True, this set didn't exist when Dark City came out but Dark City existed when Villains came out. For the most part, many of the schemes and cards are written carefully with that in mind. Some scenarios just slipped through the cracks possibly intentionally, possibly not.


I'm not sure what Dark City existing when Villains came out has anything to do with this.

The scheme is from Dark City. So when the scheme was created, it was not possible for any other version of Jean Grey to be in the city.
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Sean Riley
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hist wrote:
az933k wrote:


Ovidutz wrote:
The scheme applies only to the 14 Jean Grey Hero cards. The scheme is part of the base game which obviously appeared before the Villains base game that contains the X-Men First Class villain group, therefor it should not reference cards in future sets.


True, this Xmen First Class Adversaries set didn't exist when Dark City came out but Dark City existed when Villains came out. For the most part, many of the schemes and cards are written carefully with that in mind. Some scenarios just slipped through the cracks possibly intentionally, possibly not.


I'm not sure what Dark City existing when Villains came out has anything to do with this.

The scheme is from Dark City. So when the scheme was created, it was not possible for any other version of Jean Grey to be in the city.


Ovidutz is saying that when Dark City came out and designed this scheme, they had no idea that they would be making a villain set that includes Jean Grey.

I am saying that when they were making the Villains Set, they did know that there was a scheme that uses Jean Grey like this when they made a Jean Grey Villain
 
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Bert McCloud
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az933k wrote:

I am saying that when they were making the Villains Set, they did know that there was a scheme that uses Jean Grey like this when they made a Jean Grey Villain


Is that relevant though? Do you genuinely believe they would have chosen not to include Jean Grey in a relevant villain group just for the sake of 1 scheme where it would make an impact? I think the design team would be more likely to think that no one would ever care because creating a Jean Grey card would be more important than ensuring the balance of a single scheme within the game.
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William
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@ Bert. Your right. It is highly unlikely that the designers gave hundreds of hours of thought into this one adversary card and how it relates to this one scheme twist.

Heck, in the past year and a half I have played no less than a thousand randomized games, and this was the first time I hit this combination.

But, I have ran into a similar situation with The "crown Thor" plot. Thor is also in a Villian group as of Secret Wars V.1. We discussed that at length in another thread.

I foresee that in the future that we will have even more duplication of characters. So what I'm mainly looking for is a precedent.

If a plot or scheme references a particular character in the city, does it apply to any version of that particular character. I think it should.

To ignore a particular card because of the concept of intent means that (in my opinion) a player has taken Liberty with the rules. Maybe I'm being too much of a rules lawyer here. But, that's just me.

 
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Bert McCloud
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vikingbill71 wrote:
If a plot or scheme references a particular character in the city, does it apply to any version of that particular character. I think it should.

To ignore a particular card because of the concept of intent means that (in my opinion) a player has taken Liberty with the rules. Maybe I'm being too much of a rules lawyer here. But, that's just me.



I can understand your point there but look at it this way. A scheme says "do something with the particular set of cards" then later it says "do something with **very generalised version of the particular set of cards**" I would argue that it is ALWAYS referring to the very specific set of cards unless specified otherwise.

I believe that is quite clearly the intent of the rules. Whereas something like Cross Dimensional Rampage then goes on to specify that they want you to use any and all version available.
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William
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I see the reasonableness of both interpretations.

I guess that's why I was conflicted in the first place.

Hopefully it won't be worth $10,000 some day.
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Josh Worley
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vikingbill71 wrote:
I see the reasonableness of both interpretations.

I guess that's why I was conflicted in the first place.

Hopefully it won't be worth $10,000 some day.


More than likely, in an official tournament, this particular scenario would not be used specifically because there could be interpretations of the rules.
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Ovi Matteo
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Brace yourselves!

We have another version of Jean Grey in Secret Wars Volume 2. Which one do you choose for this scheme?
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William
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Jeff saw this thread and didn't say a word.whistle
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Davinia
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vikingbill71 wrote:
Jeff saw this thread and didn't say a word.whistle


Or has chosen to subscribe to specific forums i.e rules or particular threads i.e. his

This post is under general
 
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David A
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Personally, I think this is being over-thought which is making it over-complicated. The scheme came out in Dark City -- the same set that gave us the playable Jean Grey. Regardless of all the "what if they were thinking of future expansions" or not, to me, this scheme was created with this specific playable hero in mind.

Either way, the card specifies "Villain Deck includes 14 extra Jean Grey cards and no Bystanders." If you really insist on using cards with her name beyond the playable hero cards, just take out any cards that push you over 14. However, if you choose to go with cards other than the playable Jean, realize you're going to face the issue of any Jean Grey card having "Attack equal to its Cost plus the number of Demon Goblins stacked next to the Scheme." Since the X-Men First Class card doesn't have a Cost.

With today's introduction of "Time Traveling Jean Grey" I'd say you could use those 14 cards instead of the DC cards if you were so inclined since they're both playable heroes.

Just another reason I keep Heroes and Villains separate.
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