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Subject: Move Back and Forth to Avoid Drawing Events? rss

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Marty McFly
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I didn't see anything in the rules, so I decided to ask for thoughts here (and maybe an official ruling from Tim).

Is it legal to return to a room I just left simply to use up actions and not have to draw an Event card?

For example, let's say that I'm on a Walkway and it's a dead end. I can leave the Walkway and step into a Computer room. The problem is that the guard is in a room adjacent to the Computer room and I don't have any Stealth remaining. My other option is to go into a Thermo room, which has a Deadbolt on the other side, so it will turn on an alarm and summon the guard. What I really want to do is just hang out on the Walkway, but that results in drawing an Event. Can I move to the Computer room, back to the Walkway, back to the Computer, and back to the Walkway?

That would use up my 4 actions and stop me from having to draw an Event, but I don't think it really works in the spirit of the game. I feel like the rules should say that you cannot take 2 move actions in a row when the second move action would return you to your original spot. We didn't rule it that way in a recent play and, honestly, it felt like we were cheating.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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Don't see why not.

Seemed to be drawing events was a PLUS (though there are some bad ones). I figured you always limited your moves to be ABLE TO draw one. Not the other way around.

In fact, I'm not sure drawing an event is even required is it? Summary says "up to 4" actions... meaning you can take less. Sometimes I end up with 3 for example. But when I use 2 or less, I always draw an event because I want to. You're only ALLOWED to draw an event if you took 2 or less actions.

In fact, I had a game lost... and I drew an event just for grins and it actually got me out of the situation by freezing the guard for a turn.

EDIT: Nevermind... my bad as I wasn't remembering drawing event was a STEP not an action.

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Tim Fowers
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Yeah, I couldn't figure out the best way to phrase it, but you can't go back and forth just to avoid an event.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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Fubeca wrote:
Yeah, I couldn't figure out the best way to phrase it, but you can't go back and forth just to avoid an event.


I disagree (with the designer, bold me!) you cannot go back. It might be completely legit and would be gamey not to allow it. I could move to set off an alarm and then dash back out of the way, solely to get the guard to redirect. That would be completely in the spirit of the game.

But again, don't see why people wouldn't take a chance with an event.
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Marty McFly
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Fubeca wrote:
Yeah, I couldn't figure out the best way to phrase it, but you can't go back and forth just to avoid an event.

Thanks!
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Tim Fowers
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Yeah there are legit reasons to move back and forth, so it's a judgement call. If you're just moving back over tiles to avoid events it's against the spirit of the game.
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Marty McFly
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klkitchens wrote:
Fubeca wrote:
Yeah, I couldn't figure out the best way to phrase it, but you can't go back and forth just to avoid an event.


I disagree (with the designer, bold me!) you cannot go back. It might be completely legit and would be gamey not to allow it. I could move to set off an alarm and then dash back out of the way, solely to get the guard to redirect. That would be completely in the spirit of the game.

I did think about that and thought maybe the rule could be that you can only move back if you take an action between (like the character that can drop an alarm for an action) or if you trigger an alarm in the room. But that starts to get convoluted, and too many rules exceptions can sometimes be worse. In the end, I'd prefer a simple can/can't rule and leave it at that.

klkitchens wrote:
But again, don't see why people wouldn't take a chance with an event.

I agree with that. But one of the players didn't want to draw and event so he did the back and forth move. A couple of us said we didn't think that was right, but since it wasn't in the rules we let it go.
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Jonathan Meltzer
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It is not often that you are in an area that:

a) You need to stay in, and
b) contains two adjacent tiles that are both "safe"

I think if you are in that situation, you should be able to make use of it, deciding whether or not to draw an event or to use your 3 or 4 actions (i.e. more than 2) to move back and forth.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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martidem wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
Fubeca wrote:
Yeah, I couldn't figure out the best way to phrase it, but you can't go back and forth just to avoid an event.


I disagree (with the designer, bold me!) you cannot go back. It might be completely legit and would be gamey not to allow it. I could move to set off an alarm and then dash back out of the way, solely to get the guard to redirect. That would be completely in the spirit of the game.

I did think about that and thought maybe the rule could be that you can only move back if you take an action between (like the character that can drop an alarm for an action) or if you trigger an alarm in the room. But that starts to get convoluted, and too many rules exceptions can sometimes be worse. In the end, I'd prefer a simple can/can't rule and leave it at that.


As Tim said, that's a valid option. So I think if you want a simple can/can't, you have to go with "can" otherwise you damage the game too much.

You're on the right track with the idea of

"In the same turn you may not choose to move back to your previous location unless you take an action or use a card effect first."

That's pretty concise and doesn't involve exceptions.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Fubeca wrote:
Yeah there are legit reasons to move back and forth, so it's a judgement call. If you're just moving back over tiles to avoid events it's against the spirit of the game.


There's always the unspoken DBAD rule.
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Jonathan Meltzer
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klkitchens wrote:
You're on the right track with the idea of

"In the same turn you may not choose to move back to your previous location unless you take an action or use a card effect first."

That's pretty concise and doesn't involve exceptions.


Except that movement is in itself an action, so you would need to extend it to "an action OTHER than movement".
 
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Jonathan Meltzer
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sdiberar wrote:
Fubeca wrote:
Yeah there are legit reasons to move back and forth, so it's a judgement call. If you're just moving back over tiles to avoid events it's against the spirit of the game.


There's always the unspoken DBAD rule.


Doesn't apply here - it is a co-op game. You are not going to tick someone off if your group agrees on a ruling.
 
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Jerry
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What is DBAD rule?

Thematically, couldn't you run back and forth because you heard the guards footsteps coming your way so you are trying to find a hiding place?

I know when my kids are playing hide-n-seek they are back and forth looking until the finder stops counting
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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Mizerak wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
You're on the right track with the idea of

"In the same turn you may not choose to move back to your previous location unless you take an action or use a card effect first."

That's pretty concise and doesn't involve exceptions.


Except that movement is in itself an action, so you would need to extend it to "an action OTHER than movement".


Not at all.

I move from A1 to A2.
I'm in A2 now.
I cannot move from A2 back to A1 without taking an action. "Other than movement" is not a necessary statement at all. It would be in fact redundant.

If I move to another tile, A3, then I'm in A3 and A2 is now where I cannot go without taking an action.

Yes, Movement is an action, but it's already been explicitly excluded by rule.

 
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Ponsonby Britt, OBE
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Laporbo wrote:
What is DBAD rule?


Don't Be A Di..ssagreeable person.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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ponsonbybritt wrote:
Laporbo wrote:
What is DBAD rule?


Don't Be A Di..ssagreeable person.


The benefits of being a solo gamer.
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klkitchens wrote:
ponsonbybritt wrote:
Laporbo wrote:
What is DBAD rule?


Don't Be A Di..ssagreeable person.


The benefits of being a solo gamer.


Or the downside, depending on who you are...
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B C Z
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Fubeca wrote:
Yeah, I couldn't figure out the best way to phrase it, but you can't go back and forth just to avoid an event.


I know Tim's the Author, but...

rules wrote:

1. Take up to 4 actions listed below, in any combination. You
may take the same action more than once:
a. Reveal an adjacent tile (Peek).
b. Move to an adjacent tile. If that tile is face down, reveal it.

When on a Computer Room tile:
c. Add a Hack token to this tile.

When on a Safe tile:
d. Add a die to this Safe tile (costs 2 actions).
e. Attempt to crack the safe by rolling the dice on this tile.

2. If you only used 2 actions or fewer, draw an Event card.


No where does it indicate a player can't dance back and forth between two tiles to avoid drawing an Event card, which could be positive, negative or neutral.

Dancing may be impossible due to the various traps, doors, stoppers or expected guard movement.

Events are not always negative, but are always unknowns.

The game cannot differentiate between "intentional backtracking to avoid an Event" and "backtracking for any number of other very legitimate reasons."

Examples of legitimate backtracking:
* Sticking your nose in a "Motion Sensor" room to cause an alarm (intentionally) and then returning from whence you came. No action was taken in the "Motion" room other than to leave (thus triggering the alarm).

* Attempting to enter a Keypad and failing the roll.

Why remove the potential to avoid an unknown Event with what feels like non-thematic rule?
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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byronczimmer wrote:
Examples of legitimate backtracking:
* Sticking your nose in a "Motion Sensor" room to cause an alarm (intentionally) and then returning from whence you came. No action was taken in the "Motion" room other than to leave (thus triggering the alarm).

* Attempting to enter a Keypad and failing the roll.

Why remove the potential to avoid an unknown Event with what feels like non-thematic rule?


Yep, you got one...

I'm going to play it's ok to do so... because anything else feels fake and I am going to want the event card 99.99999999999999999% of the time anyway.
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John Breckenridge
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martidem wrote:
For example, let's say that I'm on a Walkway and it's a dead end. I can leave the Walkway and step into a Computer room. The problem is that the guard is in a room adjacent to the Computer room and I don't have any Stealth remaining. My other option is to go into a Thermo room, which has a Deadbolt on the other side, so it will turn on an alarm and summon the guard. What I really want to do is just hang out on the Walkway, but that results in drawing an Event. Can I move to the Computer room, back to the Walkway, back to the Computer, and back to the Walkway?


This particular case is not a good example, since the best option would be to move to the Computer room, hack twice, and then move to the Walkway. Less contrivance and you get something out of it.
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Marty McFly
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jbrecken wrote:
martidem wrote:
For example, let's say that I'm on a Walkway and it's a dead end. I can leave the Walkway and step into a Computer room. The problem is that the guard is in a room adjacent to the Computer room and I don't have any Stealth remaining. My other option is to go into a Thermo room, which has a Deadbolt on the other side, so it will turn on an alarm and summon the guard. What I really want to do is just hang out on the Walkway, but that results in drawing an Event. Can I move to the Computer room, back to the Walkway, back to the Computer, and back to the Walkway?


This particular case is not a good example, since the best option would be to move to the Computer room, hack twice, and then move to the Walkway. Less contrivance and you get something out of it.

The example was for illustration only and a Computer tile was the first that came to my mind. Replace Computer with Lavatory.
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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How about "you can't take one or more actions that intentionally result in no change in the game state."
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Marty McFly
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byronczimmer wrote:
Why remove the potential to avoid an unknown Event with what feels like non-thematic rule?

I guess my feeling is that running back and forth in front of the guard is already non-thematic. Thematically, if I am robbing a building and the guard is coming and I can't go anywhere until he goes away, I'd stay put and hide (resulting in an Event).
 
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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Simplest solution is "Don't draw an event card unless you want to."

Not sure why thematically you're only drawing one if you didn't do enough anyway. I see that deck as a Chance/Community Chest variant... there some good and some bad. Except that they apply to the current "player", I'd say draw one after each round.

You could also house rule that you keep the game as is and discard a stealth token to avoid the card draw.
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I'm with BT Carpenter here. Why introduce an artificial rule when you could just as well be punished or rewarded for doing the action?
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