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Subject: a couple questions about corner cases rss

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Richard Woods
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1. If Star Wars or Missile Envy pulls any of the following cards, do we ignore the conditional present on the card? (Some of these I believe I know the answer to from having read the FAQ or collected rulings, but I'm asking anyway to be completely sure.)
a. WARGAMES (If DEFCON 2)
b. NATO (Play only after 'Marshall Plan' or 'Warsaw Pact Formed')
c. The Cambridge Five (Cannot be played as an event in Late War)
d. Kitchen Debates (If the US controls more Battleground countries than the USSR)
e. "One Small Step..." (If you are behind on the Space Race track)
f. Our Man in Tehran (If the US controls at least one Middle East country)
g. Star Wars (If the US is ahead on the Space Race track)
h. Solidarity (Playable as an event only if 'John Paul II Elected Pope' is in effect)

2. For each of the cards listed in (1), can I headline the card without the condition being met? If so, what happens when that headline event resolves? (I'd assume nothing.)

3. (EDIT: This appears to be answered in another thread, which says that effects that modify Ops values of cards do indeed affect the choices available to you for Missile Envy.) If the USSR is under Brezhnev Doctrine, and the US plays Missile Envy, could they choose to give Cultural Revolution while they have Flower Power in hand since both are now 4-Op cards? Similarly, if they are under Red Scare/Purge, if their hand consists entirely of Romainian Abdication and Arab-Israeli War, could they choose to give Romanian Abdication since both are now 1-Op cards?

4. What's the actual consensus on the Missile Envy + Quagmire interaction? If someone under Quagmire has Missile Envy exchanged into their hand, are they "forced" to discard it or "free" to discard it? (I've seen both rulings!)
 
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Michael Kiefte
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1. You never ignore the conditional.

2. Yes, and nothing happens.

3. Yes.

4. first card discarded must be Missile Envy.
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Jay Sachs
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Despite your hope, there is not even any inherent symbolism; gravity is simply a coincidence.
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For the edge cases of the corner case:

mkiefte wrote:
Quote:
4. What's the actual consensus on the Missile Envy + Quagmire interaction? If someone under Quagmire has Missile Envy exchanged into their hand, are they "forced" to discard it or "free" to discard it? (I've seen both rulings!)

4. first card discarded must be Missile Envy.


Unless they're under Red Scare/Purge or if it would force them to hold a scoring card.
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Richard Woods
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mkiefte wrote:
1. You never ignore the conditional.

I know this is flatly not true, because I have seen multiple rulings to the contrary. As I said, some of these I know the answer to, but for completeness I included all of them. For example, at https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/97390/collected-rulings, we have:

"If you play Missile Envy and pull an event whose effect includes a conditional part which is not met, like Wargames when DEFCON greater than 2, then the conditional part of the effect isn't applied when resolving the effect, as usual."

So I know that (at least) this applies to Missile Envy pulling WARGAMES.

The reason that I even ask question number 2 is that in the justification for the Missile Envy/WARGAMES interaction, it's stated (in other places) that the "if" is a "prerequisite for playing it as an event" that Missile Envy "ignores". If it really is a "prerequisite" required to "play" it, can I even play it? If I can't, can I headline it?
 
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Michael Kiefte
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "conditional part".

The part of the sentence that starts with "if" is never ignored. The event is only triggered when the conditional part is satisfied. There are no exceptions...


... except NORAD. The NORAD event itself always triggers. You only get the IP if the conditional is met.

EDIT: that quote you pulled from 2010 is worded miserably as it uses the expression "conditional part" inconsistently. The intention is what I said above.
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Bill W
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Quick question.

I am USA and leading by 5vp going into late war. USSR plays we Will Bury You (WWBY) in headline and I play Missile Envy. He hands me Wargames. Do I lose?
 
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Robert Barnhart
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No. War games is always optional. You just don't give him the 6Vp and call the end of the game. War games says "may."
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Michael Valentine

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billw147 wrote:
Quick question.

I am USA and leading by 5vp going into late war. USSR plays we Will Bury You (WWBY) in headline and I play Missile Envy. He hands me Wargames. Do I lose?


No. The "may" in Wargames has been interpreted to mean that the person playing the event (in this case the USA) has the option (assuming the "if" condition of defcon 2 has been met) whether to (1) end the game after giving 6 vps to opponent or (2) not. So, as long as you choose not to give your opponent 6 vps and end the game, then you don't lose right then.
 
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Richard Woods
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mkiefte wrote:
EDIT: that quote you pulled from 2010 is worded miserably as it uses the expression "conditional part" inconsistently. The intention is what I said above.

Are you saying that the intention is that, if you're handed WARGAMES for a Missile Envy, you can choose to give your opponent 6 VP and end the game only if DEFCON is 2?

If that's true, what about "conditionals" explicitly expressed as a play restriction (specifically: NATO, The Cambridge Five, Solidarity)? If I'm handed NATO for Missile Envy and neither Warsaw Pact Formed or Marshall Plan is in effect, do I ignore the "Play only after" on NATO?
 
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Robert Barnhart
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1. Yes. Absolutely.

2. No. The event does not happen. The card just gets discarded with no effect.
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Richard Woods
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Honestly that's more sane than the ruling from the collected rulings thread anyway, so I'm glad for it ... but is there a source for that? The collected rulings thread cites a Jason Matthews post; is there somewhere he or Ananda Gupta has reversed that, which isn't updated in the rulings thread?

More generally, what *exactly* is meant by "it occurs immediately" on Missile Envy's printed text?
 
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Robert Barnhart
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I have no idea but that thread includes the examples of NATO Etc just being discarded. I can assure your 100% of games use the rule as I have described.
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