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Subject: Would this make any sense ? rss

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John Van Wagoner
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ok, here's the deal: my wife loves Runebound 2nd Ed, so I've been able to collect many many expansions over the last 9-12 months...and we still enjoy playing. however, the main reason for me adding all the expansions was to "add to the decks", esp. the "market deck/cards" (we probably now have about 150+); there just wasn't enough variety in the base game card selection for us.

now, my 3rd Edition just arrived (haven't played yet)...and it turns out I have 2 copies now (we'd also ordered a 2nd copy for my daughter/son-in-law only to find out they already have their own now as well)...it's not worth the expense to return my 2nd copy, so my question (having not played yet) is: would it make any sense to add some/all of the cards from my "extra" copy to any/all of the decks we'll be using?

(and if so, any suggestions?)

thanks...
 
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Why? They are the same cards after all. Continue enjoying 2nd edition and give 3rd edition a spin as well. If sales support it, they'll release expansions for it as well.

Though these days it seems it would have more likely for expansions if the game was called Forcebound, with a Star Wars theme.
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No, it wouldn't. Actually, it would break the game: at the moment the decks are balanced so that you have a certain amount of "cheap", a certain amount of "average" and a certain amount of "great" items. The deck is thin, 60 cards or so. You deal 12 during setup, so that you have a remaining deck of 48 cards to farm to get the items you want. If you make the game bigger, it'll end up in very odd game where you are not able to find the items you need because the deck is clogged with stuff you can't afford / you don't want to buy. If you add stuff random, you change the ratio of good vs crap (and please beware, "crap" is not real crap: it's crap for final battle, but you need those items early in the game); if you add a whole new deck, you dilute the cards so that you risk spending several rounds just searching for something interesting to buy.

IF you need so much to add new cards, then I recommend to introduce the following houserule:

"shop: when you perform a shop action, you may flush all items from the market, draw 4 new cards and pick one to buy or to discard"

in this way you accelerate the farming process and you can reach the desidered items faster.
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David Williams
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A bigger deck will be less consistent, with more extreme possibilities. You're more likely to get an excessive amount of goods, or expensive items you can't afford, or any other particular group. Items/enemies that only have 1 copy normally could suddenly appear twice.

Since it won't actually add any variety to the game by doubling the size of the deck, and since you're not likely to see every card every game anyway, I don't see any advantage in doing so.

However if you really like the idea of the game being more random and swingy, then I don't think it would break the game. At least not for item and skill decks. For adventure decks, it would give you the option to make them a bit more or less combative to suit your tastes, by swapping some cards about. But otherwise I don't personally see much point in keeping the spare copy.

If it's really not worth returning, maybe you can find another good use for it? Maybe you have other friends or know of some community projects etc who might make use of it?
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Phil Thompson
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From memory, I think most of the decks are meant to be a limited size, which is why they are symbolled or lettered. Future expansions will provide swapout options based on this, rather than creating huge item and skill decks.

 
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David Williams
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Incarnadyne wrote:
From memory, I think most of the decks are meant to be a limited size, which is why they are symbolled or lettered. Future expansions will provide swapout options based on this, rather than creating huge item and skill decks.



Yes good point - probably to limit the amount of randomness by keeping the decks a manageable size.

Please note I won't be following my own suggestions - I think the decks are fine as they are. I don't think we have seen more than half the item deck or skill deck* during a single game anyway.

I really like this swap-out system or mini-decks within decks, which they have built into the base game. It will allow for plenty of variety between games, while maintaining a relatively consistent and balanced deck.

* Other than when turning over for ability checks, I'm only counting cards in hand or in the stores.
 
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Rich Moore
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You could double the asset and skill deck...if you wanted the opportunity for different players to have access to the same skills or items. But honestly, doubling any deck doesn't make much sense. I'd sell/gift the second copy away.
 
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Marc Bennett
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I do have to say I love the system FFG has come up with for swapping out expansion cards in the skill and asset deck. very neat and clean, keeps the deck size manageable, and you can come up with a favorite combination.

if you still want to experiment with your 2nd copy of runebound just do some deck swaps and see how it changes things.

for example, the asset deck is set ABC

so you could play with set AAB, AAC, ABB, etc. it should still remain balanced.

same with the skill deck although I would keep the same ratio of body, mind and spirit cards unless you want a really funky game. maybe battle of the wizards and take all the body skill cards out.
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David Williams
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Klaxas wrote:
if you still want to experiment with your 2nd copy of runebound just do some deck swaps and see how it changes things.

for example, the asset deck is set ABC

so you could play with set AAB, AAC, ABB, etc. it should still remain balanced.


This would work, but seems to me this would do the opposite of what the OP was looking hoping to achieve, which I thought was more variety.
 
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Marc Bennett
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Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
if you still want to experiment with your 2nd copy of runebound just do some deck swaps and see how it changes things.

for example, the asset deck is set ABC

so you could play with set AAB, AAC, ABB, etc. it should still remain balanced.


This would work, but seems to me this would do the opposite of what the OP was looking hoping to achieve, which I thought was more variety.


well it would give more variety than shuffling in the whole deck because it chances the distribution and it doesn't effect balance. shuffling in the extra deck wouldn't change distribution, just increase variance.
 
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David Williams
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Klaxas wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
if you still want to experiment with your 2nd copy of runebound just do some deck swaps and see how it changes things.

for example, the asset deck is set ABC

so you could play with set AAB, AAC, ABB, etc. it should still remain balanced.


This would work, but seems to me this would do the opposite of what the OP was looking hoping to achieve, which I thought was more variety.


well it would give more variety than shuffling in the whole deck because it chances the distribution and it doesn't effect balance. shuffling in the extra deck wouldn't change distribution, just increase variance.


It gives a variety in the sense that you have changed the distribution. But it definitely has less variety of individual items because there are less unique items and many more duplicates.

I thought the OP wanted a greater variety of items, so they don't see the same items so often - swapping a unique set out for a duplicate set definitely goes against that. But maybe I misunderstood.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'balance'. I haven't personally checked exactly what each set contains so maybe I'm missing something here.
 
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Orion3T wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'balance'. I haven't personally checked exactly what each set contains so maybe I'm missing something here.


Each deck comes with a certain amount of weapons, goods, and so on, so that you have something of everything. It's clearly done with the idea of having new modular decks swappable with existing ones without risking a goods-less deck, and so on.

I made a complete analysis of everything existing in the city deck and in the skill deck. If there's interest, I can up these data on BGG, with a lot of calm (I already have too many projects running and too little time to start a new one)
 
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Marc Bennett
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'balance'. I haven't personally checked exactly what each set contains so maybe I'm missing something here.


Each deck comes with a certain amount of weapons, goods, and so on, so that you have something of everything. It's clearly done with the idea of having new modular decks swappable with existing ones without risking a goods-less deck, and so on.

I made a complete analysis of everything existing in the city deck and in the skill deck. If there's interest, I can up these data on BGG, with a lot of calm (I already have too many projects running and too little time to start a new one)


I was planning on doing something similar just haven't had time. I work in a warehouse soooo we are in black Friday/Christmas/new years restocks so ive worked 10 hour days the last 18 days.... not much time for anything really.
 
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David Williams
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'balance'. I haven't personally checked exactly what each set contains so maybe I'm missing something here.


Each deck comes with a certain amount of weapons, goods, and so on, so that you have something of everything. It's clearly done with the idea of having new modular decks swappable with existing ones without risking a goods-less deck, and so on.


I realised that's the case, and could have been their meaning. I just wasn't sure if it was their actual meaning. Balance could also mean the cost balance, or the different token types (surge vs agility vs magical vs physical) for example. I don't know if those are similar across all sets or not.

Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that the suggested action definitely decreases the variety of items you will see in a given game, which may well be a useful idea for some people who have a spare copy to use, but it didn't seem to me to be the OPs intent. They seemed clear they wanted a greater variety of items.
 
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It's close enough to Christmas. Go find a nephew (or niece, okay?) and cross him off the list! thumbsup
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Julia
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Orion3T wrote:
I realised that's the case, and could have been their meaning. I just wasn't sure if it was their actual meaning. Balance could also mean the cost balance, or the different token types (surge vs agility vs magical vs physical) for example. I don't know if those are similar across all sets or not.


There's some sort of cost balance within the decks, but not something I see as a real need - and probably will change with expansions. Let's say an expansion is focused on a rich merchant coming to town: I'd expect to see higher on value items entering the decks. Let's say they want to recreate the experience of an incredibly difficult era for Mennara: I'd expect cursed items, or tons of "utility" items and paucity of artifacts.

Also, it's worth noticing that when balancing a game, you usually work on a general balance, while working on 10 or 20 card units could result in a mere excercise of designing skills but could have a not so good overall effect (the feeling of something "built up" to reach a specific objective, if you see what I mean).

Anyhoo, I agree this is far beyond the point raised by the OP

Orion3T wrote:
Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that the suggested action definitely decreases the variety of items you will see in a given game, which may well be a useful idea for some people who have a spare copy to use, but it didn't seem to me to be the OPs intent. They seemed clear they wanted a greater variety of items.


And I agree on both these points
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David Williams
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
There's some sort of cost balance within the decks, but not something I see as a real need - and probably will change with expansions. Let's say an expansion is focused on a rich merchant coming to town: I'd expect to see higher on value items entering the decks. Let's say they want to recreate the experience of an incredibly difficult era for Mennara: I'd expect cursed items, or tons of "utility" items and paucity of artifacts.


I agree, but my intent was only to clarify what the post I quoted was referring to so I could be sure I understood it as intended.
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