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Subject: 12 points ship resurrection loop bug rss

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Máté Kovács
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Yesterday, I saw that one player at the third age could resurrect and destroy his 12 glory points ship many time, gave him a horde of points.

I've found this really unfair in many ways, these card should have some ERRATA rule. What do you think?

I do not own this game, I played with it a few times, and I am still thinking on by it, because of these OP tricks.

Are those annoys you as well, or the players can handle it after games?
 
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Paul Newsham
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He can't just choose to destroy the ship, he has to lose a battle. The other participants in the game (a) let him draft both the 12 point ship card and the "invade from Valhalla" upgrade, and (b) kept destroying his ship despite knowing that he had both of these upgrades.
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Máté Kovács
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It is easy to say, but when he puts his ship into a crowded place, then initiate a battle, you can't do anything about it.
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Jimmie Andersson
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Uuurrh! I let him in, uuuhh, was that not cool? Arrrarrh...
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Great combo, no doubt, but in the game where everything is overpowered nothing is overpowered...

(and between his rounds people should be able to pillage these places, making them not so crowded and no longer places you can pillage)
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Lance Codarin
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considering that you get both of the upgrades in the third age i think expert player will avoid having a player stick to that strategy...

In my first game i basically committed to a loki strategy and in the third age i drafted that exact combo... so yeah player faults to let me hoard all the low combat cards, the quests for valhalla and the incredible ship combo (i won by 30 points with 168 points).

The second place player committed to a "leader pillaging bonus and glory" strategy that earned him lots of upgrades and glory points and he was ahead of me most of the game (in the end he got 138 with most of the stats at max against me who had only rage at max and other stats at basically the minimum) but it was our first play of blood rage and we didn't know about all the possible permutations...
Also one of the four players didn't even commit to anything and just stayed there doing basically nothing, and that helped me in the end because i basically used 4 rage to resurrect the ship 4 times against him in a full province and he could do nothing because he drafted poorly and without paying attention...

Did i abuse it? of course i did! but that will teach players to pay attention to the game... if you aren't interested and play with a cellphone then don't play!

The other 2 guys were positively impressed and now that they know it's possible to get OP combination will pay more attention to possible sinergies

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Jeffrey Speer
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Darklaw90 wrote:
...that will teach players to pay attention to the game... if you aren't interested and play with a cellphone then don't play!


QFT. I wish I could thumb this more than once.
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Bastion wrote:
It is easy to say, but when he puts his ship into a crowded place, then initiate a battle, you can't do anything about it.

Yes you can, you can let him win. Then he can't destroy the ship.
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Mike
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Kaworu17 wrote:
Bastion wrote:
It is easy to say, but when he puts his ship into a crowded place, then initiate a battle, you can't do anything about it.

Yes you can, you can let him win. Then he can't destroy the ship.


Exactly. We had something similar to that last night in the 3rd age. You cannot just let your opponents do what they want. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some things to stop them. Cost yourself some points to prevent them from getting even more. And ships... you can't move them so once everything around their water space is pillaged, that ship is not going anywhere and should be out of the game for the most part. Seems simple enough.
 
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Lawrence
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Like others implied above, this isn't a bug - it's intentionally part of the game. This isn't a multiplayer solitaire type of game. You need to constantly observe and counter your opponents or you will lose.

And there are plenty of large VP swing combos, which makes it so that nothing is truly overpowered.
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Todd Parker
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I originally thought this game was about area control and conflict. After a few plays I see its primarily a card drafting game about exploiting combos in creative ways.

This is a fun combo. But if you manage to get the card that lets you destroy 2 of your figures yourself (to gain a stat bonus) and you will be unstoppable. Also have picked up the sea serpent in age one... 3 solitaire actions, 2 rage, 24 points and a stat bump.
 
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Jerome Loisel
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Tarnop wrote:
He can't just choose to destroy the ship, he has to lose a battle. The other participants in the game (a) let him draft both the 12 point ship card and the "invade from Valhalla" upgrade, and (b) kept destroying his ship despite knowing that he had both of these upgrades.


People keep making that argument about this game, that you need to stop someone from drafting specific things, like the throne with multiple quests, but honestly, it's so meaningless I don't know why people say it.
Let's say that you don't want to "let" someone draft Odin's Throne AND multiple quests
1) How do you know who drafted Odin's Throne?
2) You get a hand with 2 quests in it. How do you stop the guy who has Odin's Throne him from getting quests?
3) WAIT! You're not supposed to stop the guy who has Odin's Throne from getting quests. You're supposed to stop the guy who drafted the 12-point ships from also drafting the Valhalla card. How do you stop that instead?
4) I'm just messing with you. The 12-point ships weren't in this draft because they were in the cards randomly set aside before the draft started. Just take all the quests you see.
5) Why did you draft 5 quests and nothing to win them with? You don't even have Odin's Throne! The only thing you guaranteed is that you're going to lose the game.

Anyway, please let this ridiculous argument die. It doesn't make any sense for this game. I honestly think most people who use it haven't played the game yet. There are some very specific cases where yes, you do know who has drafted which card and yes, you can stop them from doing the combo, but honestly, it doesn't even happen every game, let alone every draft.
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Jerome Loisel
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
Kaworu17 wrote:
Bastion wrote:
It is easy to say, but when he puts his ship into a crowded place, then initiate a battle, you can't do anything about it.

Yes you can, you can let him win. Then he can't destroy the ship.


Exactly. We had something similar to that last night in the 3rd age. You cannot just let your opponents do what they want. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some things to stop them. Cost yourself some points to prevent them from getting even more. And ships... you can't move them so once everything around their water space is pillaged, that ship is not going anywhere and should be out of the game for the most part. Seems simple enough.


That... doesn't even work. The guy will only put his ship somewhere that HASN'T been pillaged. The only way to stop further fights from happening there is to pillage the province. The only way to pillage that province is to win the battle against the ship. And there is no way to do that without destroying the ship.

I'm not saying the strategy is game-breaking. It's an extremely strong strategy. It can be beaten by other, equally powerful strategies. It can't be beaten by the "simple enough" method you describe.

I guess after the guy places his ship, you can convince everyone around the table to LEAVE the provinces next to the ship. If possible (it will not be possible if someone has troops in two of those provinces, for example), it would mean that the guy won't be able to destroy his own ship for most of the round. You might get everyone to go along with that plan once in a blue moon. But the last guy to leave might decide that he needs the victory and the province more than he needs to hurt the Loki player, so again... I just wouldn't call that simple.
 
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Sam Leung
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I played this game like 7 times, and really, some cards combined are totally unstoppable. Stopping someone from pillaging without any other benefits is a complete waste of a good combat card. The thing, is going out of your way to stop an opponent and not getting any benefit doesn't seem like it makes sense points wise.

This game occasionally rewards good drafts over strategy too much.

One simple improvement that might slightly lengthen the play time, wld be to have a reveal of wat players drafted before proceeding to the next card.

Polarized abt this game yet still enjoy the theme.
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Paul Newsham
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jloisel wrote:
Tarnop wrote:
He can't just choose to destroy the ship, he has to lose a battle. The other participants in the game (a) let him draft both the 12 point ship card and the "invade from Valhalla" upgrade, and (b) kept destroying his ship despite knowing that he had both of these upgrades.


People keep making that argument about this game, that you need to stop someone from drafting specific things, like the throne with multiple quests, but honestly, it's so meaningless I don't know why people say it.
Let's say that you don't want to "let" someone draft Odin's Throne AND multiple quests
1) How do you know who drafted Odin's Throne?
2) You get a hand with 2 quests in it. How do you stop the guy who has Odin's Throne him from getting quests?
3) WAIT! You're not supposed to stop the guy who has Odin's Throne from getting quests. You're supposed to stop the guy who drafted the 12-point ships from also drafting the Valhalla card. How do you stop that instead?
4) I'm just messing with you. The 12-point ships weren't in this draft because they were in the cards randomly set aside before the draft started. Just take all the quests you see.
5) Why did you draft 5 quests and nothing to win them with? You don't even have Odin's Throne! The only thing you guaranteed is that you're going to lose the game.

Anyway, please let this ridiculous argument die. It doesn't make any sense for this game. I honestly think most people who use it haven't played the game yet. There are some very specific cases where yes, you do know who has drafted which card and yes, you can stop them from doing the combo, but honestly, it doesn't even happen every game, let alone every draft.


You seem to have ignored 50% of my point. And yes, I've played the game.
 
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Jerome Loisel
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Tarnop wrote:
[q="jloisel"][q="Tarnop"]
You seem to have ignored 50% of my point. And yes, I've played the game.


Ok? Well can you explain to me how I'm supposed to stop my opponents from drafting BOTH the 12-point ship card and the "invade from Valhalla" card? Say the 12-point ship card is in my opening hand, but not the "invade from Valhalla" card. Someone probably has it. (But maybe not.) It could be the guy sitting to my left. (But probably not.) He might draft it. (I certainly would!) I have no way of knowing. What do I do with all of this non-information? Are you saying that the 12-point ship card is an auto pick? That I'm supposed to draft it regardless of the other options in that hand and of my own personal strategy, just to block a mystery player, who could very well be the guy to my left, from getting the combo? What if the "invade from Valhalla" card isn't even in the game and I'm using my first draft to block a non-existent combo? What if one of these combo cards isn't in the first hand I get, but in the second? Are they still auto pick? What about Odin's Throne?

Anyway, I still really, really do not understand this idea that we're supposed to stop other players from getting combos during the draft process, and it's an argument that keeps re-appearing. And I'm sorry that you seem to feel singled out because I'm asking you, but you did make this argument so... Would you care to explain to me what I seem to have missed?
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Paul Newsham
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jloisel wrote:
Tarnop wrote:
[q="jloisel"][q="Tarnop"]
You seem to have ignored 50% of my point. And yes, I've played the game.


Ok? Well can you explain to me how I'm supposed to stop my opponents from drafting BOTH the 12-point ship card and the "invade from Valhalla" card? Say the 12-point ship card is in my opening hand, but not the "invade from Valhalla" card. Someone probably has it. (But maybe not.) It could be the guy sitting to my left. (But probably not.) He might draft it. (I certainly would!) I have no way of knowing. What do I do with all of this non-information? Are you saying that the 12-point ship card is an auto pick? That I'm supposed to draft it regardless of the other options in that hand and of my own personal strategy, just to block a mystery player, who could very well be the guy to my left, from getting the combo? What if the "invade from Valhalla" card isn't even in the game and I'm using my first draft to block a non-existent combo? What if one of these combo cards isn't in the first hand I get, but in the second? Are they still auto pick? What about Odin's Throne?

Anyway, I still really, really do not understand this idea that we're supposed to stop other players from getting combos during the draft process, and it's an argument that keeps re-appearing. And I'm sorry that you seem to feel singled out because I'm asking you, but you did make this argument so... Would you care to explain to me what I seem to have missed?


I agree that it's not always possible to draft around the combos. Yes, some combo pieces do need to be auto-pick, even if they do not suit your strategy. You also don't have to draft in silence. If you're forced to pass two extremely powerful cards to the next player, tell the rest of the table so they can draft accordingly. Of course, you can't show everyone the cards, and they don't have to believe you, but a fun metagame can be built around this.

However, the other 50% of my point was actual tactics in play. Last time we had a player with 12 point ships and invade from Valhalla, he invaded with his ship and we all marched out of the connected provinces. He got two uncontested pillages, and then his ship was stuck there. Once those provinces were pillaged, people moved in to amass strength for quests. His two pillages were worth 15 points total (10 for a stat upgrade to Legendary, 5 for the straight VP reward).

Odin's Throne requires multiple turns of laying down quests and playing the upgrade to be worthwhile. Age 3 can be over extremely quickly due to strength already on the board from age 2 and the small number of remaining provinces, so it's possible to rush pillage to counter it.

As a result of people winning by a long way with these two strategies, our Age 3 often involves rapid pillaging of all provinces adjacent to fjords to shut down 12 point boats. The players who want the Age to go longer will typically try to stop these pillages, so it becomes clear who has likely drafted a big combo. The ability to end the Age quickly is hugely important in Age 3.
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Jerome Loisel
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Thanks for the response. And I agree with the general gist that this is what you need to do to stop people from winning by a landslide with either the throne or the ship combo: work together to (a) stop them from re-destroying their ship while (b) finishing the age as quickly as possible. The only problem that I have with that is that, for me, it stops being a "strategy" and becomes more a question of diplomacy. Because for me, strategy is the answer to the question, "What can _I_ do during _my_ turn to stop him from doing that." Not what can _we_ do: What can _I_ do.

One of my favorite games of all time is Chaos in the Old World, because it is one of the very, very rare free-for-all 4-player games that isn't dominated by diplomacy. Not that there isn't any, but compare it to A Game of Thrones, for example, and that is a game _dominated_ by diplomacy, while CitOW is dominated by strategy: yes, you can gang up on someone, but do it too late, and it really is too late. Kemet is the opposite: I played that game twice, and both times, the player who was clearly losing decided to play king-maker and gave two free conquests to the second-place player, giving him 3 victory points for a free victory, while the one who had been leading up to that point could do... nothing. At. All. So Kemet, for me, is a game dominated by diplomacy: the main goal is not to make sure you are leading by time the last turn starts, but that the 4th-place player likes you more by that point and wants to see you win more than he does the other guy, who attacked him all game. (I don't plan on playing Kemet again*.) And the more I play Blood Rage, the more I realize that perhaps Blood Rage is more diplomatic than CitOW was, and perhaps more diplomatic than I hoped it would be. Because yes, for several situations in BR, the question isn't, "what can I do." The question is, "what can we do."

For what it's worth, we were doing silent drafts. It didn't even occur to me that we might be allowed to say what we were passing around. But it is true that I did not see anything limiting communication at any point in the rulebook. I don't know what I think about that.

* Yes, my gaming group might be to blame. But that problem does not exist in CitOW, so I _also_ blame the game. Congratulations on having a better gaming group than me.
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Brian M
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So I've seen this "strategy" discussed before and I'm still wondering - where is the player getting the power and actions to do all this? Resurrecting and deploying the ship costs 3 power; that's not cheap. And that final round from what I've seen can go pretty fast. If the recycler isn't playing quests or winning battles...well, 12 points is a lot, but its not much more than the bonus from just advancing a clan marker a few spaces from winning a fight.
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Paul Newsham
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StormKnight wrote:
So I've seen this "strategy" discussed before and I'm still wondering - where is the player getting the power and actions to do all this? Resurrecting and deploying the ship costs 3 power; that's not cheap. And that final round from what I've seen can go pretty fast. If the recycler isn't playing quests or winning battles...well, 12 points is a lot, but its not much more than the bonus from just advancing a clan marker a few spaces from winning a fight.


It costs one Rage to invade from Valhalla, with the Frigga upgrade
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Máté Kovács
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Tarnop wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
So I've seen this "strategy" discussed before and I'm still wondering - where is the player getting the power and actions to do all this? Resurrecting and deploying the ship costs 3 power; that's not cheap. And that final round from what I've seen can go pretty fast. If the recycler isn't playing quests or winning battles...well, 12 points is a lot, but its not much more than the bonus from just advancing a clan marker a few spaces from winning a fight.


It costs one Rage to invade from Valhalla, with the Frigga upgrade


Yeah, that is pretty cheap.
 
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Brian M
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Tarnop wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
So I've seen this "strategy" discussed before and I'm still wondering - where is the player getting the power and actions to do all this? Resurrecting and deploying the ship costs 3 power; that's not cheap. And that final round from what I've seen can go pretty fast. If the recycler isn't playing quests or winning battles...well, 12 points is a lot, but its not much more than the bonus from just advancing a clan marker a few spaces from winning a fight.


It costs one Rage to invade from Valhalla, with the Frigga upgrade

Wait, what? Has that been clarified in a FAQ or something? Because I totally took that as needing to pay the cost of the figure as well as the 1 point to invade from Valhalla. It doesn't say anything about invading for free, or ignoring any of the other rules for invading.
 
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Brian M
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StormKnight wrote:
Tarnop wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
So I've seen this "strategy" discussed before and I'm still wondering - where is the player getting the power and actions to do all this? Resurrecting and deploying the ship costs 3 power; that's not cheap. And that final round from what I've seen can go pretty fast. If the recycler isn't playing quests or winning battles...well, 12 points is a lot, but its not much more than the bonus from just advancing a clan marker a few spaces from winning a fight.


It costs one Rage to invade from Valhalla, with the Frigga upgrade

Wait, what? Has that been clarified in a FAQ or something? Because I totally took that as needing to pay the cost of the figure as well as the 1 point to invade from Valhalla. It doesn't say anything about invading for free, or ignoring any of the other rules for invading.


OK, yes, it is free. Found it in this thread:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1461090/official-faq

Ugh. I hate errata on cards.
 
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Jimmie Andersson
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But this is not erratad, right? Only clarified.
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Paul Newsham
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StormKnight wrote:

OK, yes, it is free. Found it in this thread:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1461090/official-faq

Ugh. I hate errata on cards.


It's not free. It costs one rage just like it says on the card.
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Manuel Bourgeois
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I've played both with the combo and a against it, AND I've won with the combo and against it.

It is a very strong combo of cards and a good strategy to go for IF it is available.

Despite this, I never felt it was Overpowered or Unbeatable.

1 - Play Around it During the Action Phase.

Solution: Limit the Pillaging of the zone(s) adjacent to the boat until late in the round.

The Frigga's Domain player will want to spend 100% of his/her time replaying the boat, but needs it to die for the combo to work.

Don't do the work for him!

Force him/her to spend an action to Pillage the zone, then before his/her next turn Pillage the Zone. Unless the fight ended in a tie, there is always someone with at least 1 unit left in the zone to do so.

If he/she does not pillage, then the boat will sinply sit there.

By not Pillaging you reduce the value of the combo from 12 VP per turn to 12 VP per 2 turns.

Spend your time Pillaging the other areas non-adjacent to the boat. The less zones on the board the less time the player will have to recur his/her boat and the less places he/she can go to do so.

Stopping/Limiting it During the Draft Phase


You are correct in that it is impossible to single handedly prevent everyone from getting ALL cards that combine well together AND win the game yourself.

This is because, counterdrafting is only effective when the opportunity cost of doing so is low.

The reason many people advocate doing it in these cases is that the opportunity cost is usually fairly low.

Example 1 - Effective Counterdrafting:

Odin's Throne: Most quests are worth drafting early, so drafting quests early is not going to ruin your strategy. A quest is probably worth 19+ points (9 for the quest and 10 for the clan upgrade). Few cards compare to that, and the ones that do are pretty close point-wise or part of the other half of the combo.

Frigga's Domain: This card is often picked very early, but only pays off if you have a boat upgrade or useful monster / Mystic upgrade to make use of it. The 12 pt boat upgrade is usually worth 16 pts easy, since you simply deploy your boat to the Ragnarok area after Pillages in the adj areas are complete. Pretty sure this is worth around the same points as many other card you could pick. Taking this upgrade is usually not tantamount to making a huge sacrifice.

Example 2 - Ineffective Counter Drafting.

Phase 1, I have done/seen a Yggdrasil rush done using the Dwarf (Monster Upgrade) and the Phase 1 Leader Upgrade or the Phase 1 Giant (Monster Upgrade). The way this works is by using the tempo swing generated from dropping a 2+ strength unit using only 1 action, or from getting a free move action after a successful pillage.

You could draft against this by drafting the Dwarf Upgrade early and you would probably would not be adversly effected if you did. However, drafting the Leader Upgrade early is a terrible idea. The card is overall quite weak and picking it simply to prevent someone from rushing yggdrasil is a terrible idea.

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