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Subject: reserving card on last turn rss

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Bruce Wayne
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Once a player gets fifteen points, the round continues in order to give everyone the same number of turns. Is it possible for someone to reserve a card in their last turn?

I ran into a situation where someone reached fifteen points, but I would have been able to win by purchasing a certain card on my last turn. However, the player before me reserved the card knowing that I could have won (even though there is no way they could ever purchase the card since it was the last round). They purposely did this just to be a jerk.

Do the rules explicitly forbid this? Or should I just not play with those people anymore?
 
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On a turn you may reserve a card if you do not already have 3 reserved cards. They played their turn correctly.
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A J
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What a jerk. Don't play with people like that.
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Billy McBoatface
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ayejae wrote:
What a jerk. Don't play with people like that.

They're a jerk if they're just kingmaking. But if this maneuver moved them to 2nd place (behind the leader) from 3rd place (behind you and the leader), then they played well and should be congratulated.
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muffinheimer wrote:
Once a player gets fifteen points, the round continues in order to give everyone the same number of turns. Is it possible for someone to reserve a card in their last turn?

I ran into a situation where someone reached fifteen points, but I would have been able to win by purchasing a certain card on my last turn. However, the player before me reserved the card knowing that I could have won (even though there is no way they could ever purchase the card since it was the last round). They purposely did this just to be a jerk.

Do the rules explicitly forbid this? Or should I just not play with those people anymore?


Unless he was purposely taunting you, it sounds like he was just playing the game. Blocking is all part of the strategy, and if it moves him up in rankings, it's exactly what he should be doing.

If you don't like that kind of player interaction, either play with predetermined house rules or look for a more co-op or multiplayer solitatire type games.
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Hans Moleman
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I was saying boo-urns
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wmshub wrote:
ayejae wrote:
What a jerk. Don't play with people like that.

They're a jerk if they're just kingmaking. But if this maneuver moved them to 2nd place (behind the leader) from 3rd place (behind you and the leader), then they played well and should be congratulated.



Agreed. Also, I wouldn't be too dismissive over the move if he was 3rd place regardless. The move would of been just fine IF this wasn't the last round -- just because the game will be over, doesn't make the play bad.

He can't help his position, so ultimately he has to choose the winner:
If he takes, other guy win
If he doesn't, you win

He's in a bad spot anyhow. If the card was important why not reserve it prior (if able). Other guy could argue just the same

All in all -- fair play. But my group tends to be cutthroat, regardless of position.
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KingD21 wrote:
wmshub wrote:
ayejae wrote:
What a jerk. Don't play with people like that.

They're a jerk if they're just kingmaking. But if this maneuver moved them to 2nd place (behind the leader) from 3rd place (behind you and the leader), then they played well and should be congratulated.



Agreed. Also, I wouldn't be too dismissive over the move if he was 3rd place regardless. The move would of been just fine IF this wasn't the last round -- just because the game will be over, doesn't make the play bad.

He can't help his position, so ultimately he has to choose the winner:
If he takes, other guy win
If he doesn't, you win

He's in a bad spot anyhow. If the card was important why not reserve it prior (if able). Other guy could argue just the same

All in all -- fair play. But my group tends to be cutthroat, regardless of position.


The play is fair and legal. But I think that if my position can't be helped at all, the courtesy is to directly influence the outcome as little possible. Less likely to be accused of kingmaking and just better for me socially.

Tbh a group that will allow this to create serious rifts is probably a bit too toxic for my taste. I'd just prefer congratulating the two others as near equals (based on a technicality) and move on to the next game.
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Hans Moleman
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But he did notice.
So not doing anything did in fact crown a king.


Just b/c you are less likely to be accused means nothing. I understand that you don't want to influence the victory, but had this not been the final round -- no one questions the move.


Gaming is all about preference, so if you don't like it, play with others. I just wouldn't call him a jerk.
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KingD21 wrote:
But he did notice.
So not doing anything did in fact crown a king.


Just b/c you are less likely to be accused means nothing. I understand that you don't want to influence the victory, but had this not been the final round -- no one questions the move.


Gaming is all about preference, so if you don't like it, play with others. I just wouldn't call him a jerk.


Fair enough. But the OP said he did it just to be a jerk, so it appears at least he thinks it's a jerk move.
 
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Joseph Betz
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A real jerk would have screamed "I am not going to win but you will not either"! right before they took the card.
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ayejae wrote:
...But I think that if my position can't be helped at all, the courtesy is to directly influence the outcome as little possible. Less likely to be accused of kingmaking and just better for me socially.


Either way, the player is Kingmaking. Don't take a card, Player A wins. Take the card Player, B wins.

That is the unfortunate nature of some games.

Active or passive, the player was forced into a kingmaking position.
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David Larkin
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If you needed the card you should have reserved it, that is what reserving is for. If you were playing in a competition where points in all games counted then this move would limit your points thus reducing the gap between you and him and should be expected.
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pacemaker67 wrote:
ayejae wrote:
...But I think that if my position can't be helped at all, the courtesy is to directly influence the outcome as little possible. Less likely to be accused of kingmaking and just better for me socially.


Either way, the player is Kingmaking. Don't take a card, Player A wins. Take the card Player, B wins.

That is the unfortunate nature of some games.

Active or passive, the player was forced into a kingmaking position.


In our group when something like this presents itself, we just acknowledge that the two potential kings both won and maybe use the tiebreaker to see who won more. In a tournament, it's probably more of an issue.
 
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Hans Moleman
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Alternatively, the player in 1st position might have noticed that the player in 3rd position could end the game without any chance of another turn. [also believing that if he reserved the card, position 3 player might still win another way]

Therefore, hitting 15 faster than he/she anticipated and hope that player in position 2 takes the card player in position 3 wanted/needed.

Not the best strategy (of course), but a chance to win is better than a for-sure loss.
 
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muffinheimer wrote:
I ran into a situation where someone reached fifteen points, but I would have been able to win by purchasing a certain card on my last turn. However, the player before me reserved the card knowing that I could have won (even though there is no way they could ever purchase the card since it was the last round). They purposely did this just to be a jerk.

And if they had not taken the card then the other player (who in reality won) would not have won.

It seems rather uncharitable to call them a jerk when no matter what perfectly legal move they do (reserve a card or not reserve a card), it will determine who wins.

If someone can't win, then playing for rank or for reducing their score difference with other players are perfectly defensible alternatives.
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Chris L
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This exact thing happened to me once also. A father reserved a card I needed so his son could win. I was a little annoyed but ultimately my loss was my fault for not winning decisively.
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russ wrote:
muffinheimer wrote:
I ran into a situation where someone reached fifteen points, but I would have been able to win by purchasing a certain card on my last turn. However, the player before me reserved the card knowing that I could have won (even though there is no way they could ever purchase the card since it was the last round). They purposely did this just to be a jerk.

And if they had not taken the card then the other player (who in reality won) would not have won.

It seems rather uncharitable to call them a jerk when no matter what perfectly legal move they do (reserve a card or not reserve a card), it will determine who wins.

If someone can't win, then playing for rank or for reducing their score difference with other players are perfectly defensible alternatives.


Well said.
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Bruce Wayne
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I could understand doing so if you were playing in some kind of tournament that involves points for second place, but that was not the case in this situation.

In this case it would have been most charitable for the player to not interfere with the outcome of the game when it is impossible for him to win. The only purpose of finishing the last round should be to allow players to make a winning move, if they can. It should not be to troll other players.
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muffinheimer wrote:
In this case it would have been most charitable for the player to not interfere with the outcome of the game when it is impossible for him to win. ..


But as many people have pointed out, he'd be interfering with the outcome of the game by NOT taking the card you wanted.

This is an unfortunate outcome of many types of games with more than 2 players.

This kind of hate-drafting happens a lot in Splendor. You seeing it happening on the last round only does not mean it was not happening the entire game. In fact, this game, more than many others I have played, seems to rely on some sense of player-controlled balancing of positive moves for you and protective moves against the next player(s).
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muffinheimer wrote:
I could understand doing so if you were playing in some kind of tournament that involves points for second place, but that was not the case in this situation.

Many BGG threads over the years make clear that many people find it reasonable to play for as high a rank as they can, or for reducing score differentials, or other such secondary criteria when they can't win, in non-tournament games. (Or for revenge against a player who they feel was the one who put them out of contention.) It's not just a tournament thing.
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People taking the card you want, making you angry, so you can't score points is splendor as far as I'm concerned. If that bothers you, I'd suggest not playing splendor again instead of not playing with someone for making the move.

I assume you are either made because you lost or you generally don't like the guy anyway and need a safe excuse to avoid him. Some games make you mad at players when you really should be mad at the game, or yourself.

Personally, I would have made the choice based on who interfered with me the most prior.
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muffinheimer wrote:
I could understand doing so if you were playing in some kind of tournament that involves points for second place, but that was not the case in this situation.

In this case it would have been most charitable for the player to not interfere with the outcome of the game when it is impossible for him to win. The only purpose of finishing the last round should be to allow players to make a winning move, if they can. It should not be to troll other players.


So, in reading your posts, I have a couple of questions (in no particular order):

You're saying that, just because it's not a tournament, that's sufficient reason for this other person to NOT play their best game. Is that correct?

Would the triggering player be justified in writing to complain if the other player had NOT taken the card, throwing the game in your direction?

Do you often get this bent out of shape when someone deprives you of a win?

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Rich Charters
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KingD21 wrote:
He can't help his position, so ultimately he has to choose the winner:
If he takes, other guy win
If he doesn't, you win
If I were in the kingmaker's position, my response would be to explain the situation so that all the players at the table understood the situation...and then not make a move. Instead I would declare the game over and both players tied for victory, while I lost. If I were pushed to declare a winner, I would probably take out a coin and toss it to determine the winner.

It's like a forced checkmate in chess...once you see and have explained the forced mate, it makes no sense to actually play the moves....instead, you just declare the winner.
 
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richcharters wrote:
KingD21 wrote:
He can't help his position, so ultimately he has to choose the winner:
If he takes, other guy win
If he doesn't, you win
If I were in the kingmaker's position, my response would be to explain the situation so that all the players at the table understood the situation...and then not make a move. Instead I would declare the game over and both players tied for victory, while I lost. If I were pushed to declare a winner, I would probably take out a coin and toss it to determine the winner.

It's like a forced checkmate in chess...once you see and have explained the forced mate, it makes no sense to actually play the moves....instead, you just declare the winner.


Full agreement.
 
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richcharters wrote:
If I were in the kingmaker's position, my response would be to explain the situation so that all the players at the table understood the situation...and then not make a move. Instead I would declare the game over and both players tied for victory, while I lost. If I were pushed to declare a winner, I would probably take out a coin and toss it to determine the winner.


Did the other players around the table give you the right to unilaterally decide the winner outside of the written victory conditions?

Player A scored enough points to win. Player B did not. That's the only way to determine a winner. Anything else and you're cheating player A of his/her win.

Quote:
It's like a forced checkmate in chess...once you see and have explained the forced mate, it makes no sense to actually play the moves....instead, you just declare the winner.


It's nothing like a forced mate. In a forced mate, NOTHING will change the result. In the example we are talking about, the result would completely change based on the decision of one player. Until that player decides on their action, there is no obvious winner.

Winning is part of playing games.

So is losing graciously. If you can't learn to lose graciously, people will stop playing with you.
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