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Subject: Spend TU and act question pg 9 rss

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Mike DeLeeuw
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Page 9 instructions: "After deliberation, and after everyone has decided what to do, time captain spends 1 TU and each player performs the action they've chosen.

The sequence is therefore:

- deliberation,reflection, and debate;
- expenditure of 1 TU
- Actions

My question is can you change the action you were going to do if what you were going to do is no longer necessary because another player already completed the task?


example 2 players were going roll for a test and the first players roll completed the test can the other player now decide to move or is he locked into the test action?

example: one player decides to move to a new card. can he look at the cards and explains what he sees. Based on that information can the other players change what they were going to do?

Thanks
Mike
 
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mikael mordai
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I think since you decide the player order that if you completed a test then the other person can move or do something else...
 
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Dom Hiob
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mordai wrote:
I think since you decide the player order that if you completed a test then the other person can move or do something else...


ha! We played that it couldn't be changed. Reason is: you were there as a back-up in case the test went wrong. So thematically, you went to the place and prepared to do... whatever it is you're trying to do. Mechanically, I think it'd be a tad too easy if you just put everyone on one test, only to move when it becomes opportune. Just my 2 cents, though.

Edit: since the order is: deliberate, advance TU, act, you could do something different AT THE SAME LOCATION, I guess. But you couldn't move somewhere else or similar.
 
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ALeX
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I agree that you can't change your selected action (taking a test, moving or doing nothing).

But you still can help: If Madeline is taking a test alone and at the same time someone else decides to move to help on that test if that player moves first Madeline does not have to suffer the penalty (or even gets a bonus if now all team members are on the space).
 
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Sebastian Rapp
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I asked the Space Cowboys exactly the same thing: Although you decide what to do before starting actions, you can still change your decision if something happens that makes sense to alter it. So, you could say something like "I am about to move to a different space, but if my companion fails this easy roll here where we both are, I stay to finish it."

Sebastian Rapp - Asmodee
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Dom Hiob
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S_Rapp_Asmodee wrote:
I asked the Space Cowboys exactly the same thing: Although you decide what to do before starting actions, you can still change your decision if something happens that makes sense to alter it. So, you could say something like "I am about to move to a different space, but if my companion fails this easy roll here where we both are, I stay to finish it."

Sebastian Rapp - Asmodee


wow. This really should be updated in a future product or official FAQ document.

So it makes total sense to gather the whole group wherever something difficult seems to be lurking, and if you're lucky on the first or second roll, spread the rest of the group as an afterthought. I can't say I like this ruling. It seems you'd do each and every room the same way. Also, the discussion and deliberation part could almost be skipped.
 
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Stephen Cooper
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We always allow agents to change their actions based upon those that went before; what's the point of forcing them to stand around punching thin air when the goon is already beaten and lying unconscious on the floor?
 
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Mike DeLeeuw
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What about in my second example. When a player moves to a new space is the card immediately viewed by that player and others can now act based on that information, or does that player wait to all actions are done before reading the card?

Thanks
Mike
 
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Jared Voshall
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For the second example, I believe the play order is Action is declared, players move to the new card, and then the new card is revealed. So, everyone will have already moved to and/or completed their actions before the new card is revealed and interacted with.
 
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Mike DeLeeuw
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Magius wrote:
For the second example, I believe the play order is Action is declared, players move to the new card, and then the new card is revealed. So, everyone will have already moved to and/or completed their actions before the new card is revealed and interacted with.


What if 3 people decided to roll for tests and one move. The person that moved acted first and went to a card unknown by the group. Can he reveal the information on that card then based on that information one of the other characters decide to move to the new card rather than roll for the test they were orginally going to do?

That's what i was getting at. Sorry for being unclear.
 
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Jared Voshall
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That's what I'm saying, the card is not revealed until the players resolve all of their actions and complete their movement. So, order of play would be:

1) TU is spent
2) Players perform their Action for the turn, including performing Tests (if available) or Moving to a new card
3) Once all actions have complete, any cards that players have moved to are revealed to those players. (IIRC) If the card requires a test, the players at the newly revealed card can now attempt to resolve it in any order.

So, again, the card is not revealed until after all Movement has occured.
 
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Mike DeLeeuw
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Thank you Jared. It did seem unfair to allow that to happen, but in my first example some people allowed themselves to change actions and some didn't. But being the 1 TU all actions happen simultaneously the revealing a new card and changing your mind on based on that seemed wrong.

Quote:
I asked the Space Cowboys exactly the same thing: Although you decide what to do before starting actions, you can still change your decision if something happens that makes sense to alter it. So, you could say something like "I am about to move to a different space, but if my companion fails this easy roll here where we both are, I stay to finish it."

Sebastian Rapp - Asmodee


I just want to get this stuff decided before i start the game so not to be worrying about it while playing.
 
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David Tolin
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DomHiob wrote:
S_Rapp_Asmodee wrote:
I asked the Space Cowboys exactly the same thing: Although you decide what to do before starting actions, you can still change your decision if something happens that makes sense to alter it. So, you could say something like "I am about to move to a different space, but if my companion fails this easy roll here where we both are, I stay to finish it."

Sebastian Rapp - Asmodee


wow. This really should be updated in a future product or official FAQ document.

So it makes total sense to gather the whole group wherever something difficult seems to be lurking, and if you're lucky on the first or second roll, spread the rest of the group as an afterthought. I can't say I like this ruling. It seems you'd do each and every room the same way. Also, the discussion and deliberation part could almost be skipped.


Well, you can't take movement back. What Sebastian is saying is if you haven't taken your action yet for the turn, you're not locked in and you can change your planned action (based on results of what other players are doing). As the rules point out, turn order is not fixed, and each Agent rolls for tests separately. If you put everyone on the same space when entering a location, you're not necessarily being very efficient.

The sequence looks like this:

1. Agents enter Location X, which has 4 spaces (A,B,C, & D)
2. When entering, each Agent goes to a different space (one on each)
3. The Agents all look at their cards and discuss what they've found (so far, no TU have been spent)
4. The group plans what to do, and Agent 1 asks for some help with a test on space A.
5. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
5a. Agent 1 attempts the test and does not complete it.
5b. Agents 2-4 move to space A.
6. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
6a. Agents 1 & 2 attempt the test and successfully complete it.
6b. Agents 3 & 4, seeing the test is complete, move somewhere else.

Alternatively:

1. Agents enter Location X, with everyone on the same space (A).
2. All the Agents look at the same card (for space A).
3. The group plans what to do and decide to try the test.
4. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
4a. Agents 1-2 attempt the test and successfully complete it.
4b. Agents 3 & 4, seeing the test is complete, move somewhere else.

Using the "group together" method, you spend 1 less TU, but you've also seen fewer cards (and will need another TU spent before Agents 3 & 4 get to deal with the additional cards they've now seen). Potentially, if it does take all 4 Agents to defeat the test, you've seen much fewer cards. I don't think you would always choose one alternative over the other, and I don't think auto-grouping at every location is strictly beneficial.
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Stephen Cooper
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Magius wrote:
That's what I'm saying, the card is not revealed until the players resolve all of their actions and complete their movement. So, order of play would be:

1) TU is spent
2) Players perform their Action for the turn, including performing Tests (if available) or Moving to a new card
3) Once all actions have complete, any cards that players have moved to are revealed to those players. (IIRC) If the card requires a test, the players at the newly revealed card can now attempt to resolve it in any order.

So, again, the card is not revealed until after all Movement has occured.
The above is incorrect, page 9: "Important: You can immediately look at the card corresponding to the space on which you have just arrived. This does not cost any extra TU."

From that and Sebastian's post, if you've moved first, you can describe what you've seen, call for help and have other agents change their plans for this TU.

To attempt a test at the new card requires a TU.

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Dom Hiob
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DavidT wrote:

The sequence looks like this:


Thanks for making up this detailed play example. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions, so let me have a go at it

Quote:
1. Agents enter Location X, which has 4 spaces (A,B,C, & D)
2. When entering, each Agent goes to a different space (one on each)
3. The Agents all look at their cards and discuss what they've found (so far, no TU have been spent)
4. The group plans what to do, and Agent 1 asks for some help with a test on space A.
5. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
5a. Agent 1 attempts the test and does not complete it.
5b. Agents 2-4 move to space A.


So, at this point:
spent 1 TU
know 4 spaces
no tests completed
agent spaces: AAAA


Quote:
6. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
6a. Agents 1 & 2 attempt the test and successfully complete it.
6b. Agents 3 & 4, seeing the test is complete, move somewhere else.


at this point:
spent 2 TU
know 4 spaces
1 test completed
agent spaces: AAXY

Quote:

Alternatively:

1. Agents enter Location X, with everyone on the same space (A).
2. All the Agents look at the same card (for space A).
3. The group plans what to do and decide to try the test.
4. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
4a. Agents 1-2 attempt the test and successfully complete it.
4b. Agents 3 & 4, seeing the test is complete, move somewhere else.


at this point
spent 1 TU
know 3 spaces
1 test completed
agent spaces: AAXY

So, this state is almost the same as in the first example. Only, there's 1 TU (= 4 agent activations) less spent. And one space less known. Since to get to know a space, only 1 agent activation is necessary, the second variant is 3 agent activations better. Which IMO is quite a lot. Sum it up over the course of one run and you could get something like 50 extra activations or more.

edit: replaced "locations" by "spaces" for clarity
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David Tolin
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DomHiob wrote:
DavidT wrote:

The sequence looks like this:


Thanks for making up this detailed play example. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions, so let me have a go at it

Quote:
1. Agents enter Location X, which has 4 spaces (A,B,C, & D)
2. When entering, each Agent goes to a different space (one on each)
3. The Agents all look at their cards and discuss what they've found (so far, no TU have been spent)
4. The group plans what to do, and Agent 1 asks for some help with a test on space A.
5. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
5a. Agent 1 attempts the test and does not complete it.
5b. Agents 2-4 move to space A.


So, at this point:
spent 1 TU
know 4 spaces
no tests completed
agent spaces: AAAA


Quote:
6. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
6a. Agents 1 & 2 attempt the test and successfully complete it.
6b. Agents 3 & 4, seeing the test is complete, move somewhere else.


at this point:
spent 2 TU
know 4 spaces
1 test completed
agent spaces: AAXY

Quote:

Alternatively:

1. Agents enter Location X, with everyone on the same space (A).
2. All the Agents look at the same card (for space A).
3. The group plans what to do and decide to try the test.
4. The Time Captain spends 1 TU.
4a. Agents 1-2 attempt the test and successfully complete it.
4b. Agents 3 & 4, seeing the test is complete, move somewhere else.


at this point
spent 1 TU
know 3 spaces
1 test completed
agent spaces: AAXY

So, this state is almost the same as in the first example. Only, there's 1 TU (= 4 agent activations) less spent. And one space less known. Since to get to know a space, only 1 agent activation is necessary, the second variant is 3 agent activations better. Which IMO is quite a lot. Sum it up over the course of one run and you could get something like 50 extra activations or more.

edit: replaced "locations" by "spaces" for clarity


I pretty much agree, but I think the uncertain factors will still outweigh the benefit of "auto-grouping," at least a good percentage of the time.

For instance, what if there are more than four eligible spaces in the location? In that case, "dispersed entry" could look like:

spent 2 TU
know 6 spaces
1 test completed
Agent spaces: AAEF

(assuming, as in the original sequence, Agents 1-2 complete the test and Agents 3-4 move to the 5th and 6th spaces)

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Dom Hiob
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DavidT wrote:

I pretty much agree, but I think the uncertain factors will still outweigh the benefit of "auto-grouping," at least a good percentage of the time.

For instance, what if there are more than four eligible spaces in the location? In that case, "dispersed entry" could look like:

spent 2 TU
know 6 spaces
1 test completed
Agent spaces: AAEF

(assuming, as in the original sequence, Agents 1-2 complete the test and Agents 3-4 move to the 5th and 6th spaces)



I guess we pretty much agree. In fact, I went with the rather conservative estimate of 50 additional activations per run because I was thinking of situations like the one you mentioned (and others where the benefit might be much less pronounced than in the original example.)

But even if there were no additional activations, I dislike the ruling because of thematic reasons. If it takes 1 TU to move from space A to space B, then how could I possibly stand at A, wait until the other agent has overcome whatever obstacle there is, and still get to move (that would mean that the waiting didn't take any time). Also, mechanically, if I know I can change what I'm doing after the fact, that makes discussing a tactic for the turn beforehand a bit less interesting.

It seems it's official, however. And since all I'm saying is: I don't like it, maybe I'll just house-rule against it
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Paul Grogan
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This really does need proper clarification with a more official answer. I've found the rules very unclear on a number of points, and this really impacted our enjoyment of the game.

If the rules are that each player can change their action based on new information, then this makes no sense with the way the rules are written. If that were true, it should be that the captain spends 1 TU and then all players in the order they want take 1 action.

And I agree, thematically, players should decide and announce what they are doing first. The rules do say that it all happens simultaneously.
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Stephen Cooper
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PaulGrogan wrote:
This really does need proper clarification with a more official answer. I've found the rules very unclear on a number of points, and this really impacted our enjoyment of the game.

If the rules are that each player can change their action based on new information, then this makes no sense with the way the rules are written. If that were true, it should be that the captain spends 1 TU and then all players in the order they want take 1 action.

And I agree, thematically, players should decide and announce what they are doing first. The rules do say that it all happens simultaneously.
I disagree. Although the actions in a TU are simultaneous, there is a clear demarcation between each action: agents attempting a test on one space do so one after the other, so they can select on the fly who will attempt the test "now", if actions were truly simultaneous then would not the agents attempting the test be rolling all of their dice at the same time and pooling the result?

Further, a TU is not a defined period; if it can take one TU to traverse from a distant, outside location to one inside, and also one TU to land a single knock out punch, I'd offer then it's not unreasonable to apply the undefined remaining fraction of the TU following the punch to move to another space. For me that's far more thematic than declaring, agent1 will fight, agent2 will fight, agent3 will fight and agent4 will move, then agent1 KOs the opposition, agent4 moves and agents 2 and 3 stare vacantly at the unmoving body on the floor, fists clenched in frustrated redundancy. Decide on a course of action by all means, but be prepared to adapt in an evolving situation.
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Paul Grogan
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Even though we have had an official ruling, I'm still not sure about this. The rulebook really does not indicate this, and the number of people interpreting the rule a different way is definition enough that the rulebook is not clear


Let's look at exactly what the rulebook says:

"After deliberation, and after everyone has decided what to do, the Time Captain spends 1 TU (moving the time token one space closer to 0) and each player performs the action they’ve chosen."

That seems really clear to me. You DECIDE what to do. Then spend 1 TU. And THEN, each player performs the action they've CHOSEN. There is nothing in there about changing your mind. It seems clear that you need to decide what action you are performing before the TU is spent.

However, the new ruling seems to be that you can change your mind. Which means this sentence literally is completely wrong, and it should be:

"After deliberation, the Time Captain spends 1 TU and each player then performs an action of their choice in whatever order they want."
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Stephen Cooper
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PaulGrogan wrote:
Even though we have had an official ruling, I'm still not sure about this. The rulebook really does not indicate this, and the number of people interpreting the rule a different way is definition enough that the rulebook is not clear


Let's look at exactly what the rulebook says:

"After deliberation, and after everyone has decided what to do, the Time Captain spends 1 TU (moving the time token one space closer to 0) and each player performs the action they’ve chosen."

That seems really clear to me. You DECIDE what to do. Then spend 1 TU. And THEN, you perform the action they've CHOSEN.

However, the new ruling seems to be that you can change your mind. Which means this sentence literally is completely wrong, and it should be:

"After deliberation, the Time Captain spends 1 TU and each player then performs an action of their choice in whatever order they want."
I'm beginning to wonder what subtleties may have been lost in translation.
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Dale Taylor
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Thanks, Paul, for your efforts to assemble an FAQ in another thread.

The rules regarding the spending of TUs and actions thereafter certainly seem problematic.

Though I am hardly bilingual, my French is good enough to ascertain that the original French rules are the same as the English rules in this regard. No changing of actions.

Also, it seems to me that the examples on the following page of the rulebook seem to support the rules as written. There is certainly no reference to choosing actions and then making different choices if your initial actions are no longer appropriate or necessary. IMHO, the rules are clear as stated.

Certainly would be nice to have an accurate English translation of the German rules and especially their FAQ.

Regardless, the response to the Asmodee employee by Space Cowboys, which indicates that you can change your actions (and should be relatively official), really has complicated this issue.
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Dom Hiob
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Dalmari wrote:
Certainly would be nice to have an accurate English translation of the German rules and especially their FAQ.


German text:
Quote:
Jetzt ist es an der Zeit zu handeln -- und das kostet euch unter Umständen Zeit. Sobald ihr alles gut durchdacht habt und jeder sich entschieden hat, was er tun wird, gibt der Zeit-Captain 1 ZE aus (und bewegt den Zeitmarker entsprechend in Richtung der 0). Dann führt jeder von euch die Aktion aus, für die er sich entschieden hat. Die Reihenfolge ist dabei:
- Überlegen, diskutieren, entscheiden;
- 1 ZE ausgeben;
- Aktionen durchführen.


which I'll try and translate:
Quote:
Now it's time for action -- which might cost you time. Once you have thought everything through and everyone has decided on their course of action [literally: everyone has decided on what he will do], the time-captain spends 1 TU (and moves the time marker accordingly closer to 0). Then, each of you takes the action that he has decided on. The order with this is:
- deliberate, discuss, decide;
- spend 1 TU;
- take actions.


I don't have the FAQ handy at the moment. However, the rules do seem pretty clear and don't support changing the action in and of themselves.

However, as you said: the official stance on this seems rather clear pro-changing. Hopefully we'll get an official official (as in: not a single post in one thread on BGG) statement on this.
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Dale Taylor
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Re: Unofficial FAQ - Important Official Clarification Update

Yesterday, I received the following email from Francois Doucet regarding Point 2 in Paul Grogan's FAQ about Declaring Actions and Spending TU:

Hi Dale,

This will be corrected in the rulebook on next printings. The correct rule is that you don't have to take your actions simultaneously. Spending a TU allows each player to act the way he/she wants. You can wait for the results of a fellow agent's dice rolls and choose your action.

Don't worry about difficulty, it won't make the game much easier. It will run more smoothly, though.

Kind regards,

François Doucet
Space Cowboys

I have also posted this in Paul FAQ thread. Seems pretty official.
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Dom Hiob
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Dalmari wrote:
I have also posted this in Paul FAQ thread. Seems pretty official.


Thanks for posting this. I'll play the unofficial variant, then
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