Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Lanterns: The Harvest Festival» Forums » Variants

Subject: Give the 2nd/3rd/4th player 1/2/3 Favors during setup. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem is this: yes, going later means you will receive more cards that you can use (during the last round), but that MAY not be useful AND you don't have control over those extra cards.

But the advantage of going earlier in turn order is just strictly better. If all players are (roughly) equal in skill and have (roughly) the same amount of luck of the draw, the earlier players in turn order will have a better chance at winning simply because they have earlier opportunities at the better VP tiles.

This variant seems like an easy way to offset this advantage (though even it may not be enough).

Thoughts? Besides "I haven't noticed this to be a problem with my group." That's great, but that really depends on a multitude of factors and isn't really helpful information.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Chaz
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
Players later in the turn order have earlier access to double matches, which can be significant.

For example, if p3 plays on 4 of the six exposed sides on their turn, that opens up two possibilities for double matches, which p4 could then capitalize on.

Edit - math
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Zarzycki
Poland
Poznań
Wielkopolskie
flag msg tools
spiral out
badge
keep going
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a fun easy family game. It's not oriented towards competitive crowd. If you wan to min/max this, you'll quickly figure out, that luck of the draw is the determining factor. I see this as a game "whe, who can do the dedication every round sans first 1 or 2, is placed well to win", rather than "1st or n-th player have unfair advantage".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Shampoo4you wrote:
more cards ... that MAY not be useful AND you don't have control over those extra cards.

First round problem? Bluntly, that's the sense that I get the whole game.

It's short. So play four times (which we almost do anyway) and get a cumulative score.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Chaz wrote:
Players later in the turn order have earlier access to double matches, which can be significant.

For example, if p2 plays on 4 of the six exposed sides on their turn, that opens up two possibilities for double matches, which p3 and p4 could then capitalize on.


Yes, but just like the extra cards received in the first round, it's only a possibility, and one that you have no control over.

If I'm the 4th player, and the opponent's made a square, I have no extra opportunity for a double bonus.

And in all cases, my cards in hand are also a determinant factor.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Chaz
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
Shampoo4you wrote:
The Chaz wrote:
Players later in the turn order have earlier access to double matches, which can be significant.

For example, if p2 plays on 4 of the six exposed sides on their turn, that opens up two possibilities for double matches, which p3 and p4 could then capitalize on.


Yes, but just like the extra cards received in the first round, it's only a possibility, and one that you have no control over.

If I'm the 4th player, and the opponent's made a square, I have no extra opportunity for a double bonus.

And in all cases, my cards in hand are also a determinant factor.


(please see my edited first comment)

The extra cards are guaranteed, not just possible!

The real issue is what you're trying to make this game about. If you want a heavier game, make players bid points for turn order.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Chaz wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
The Chaz wrote:
Players later in the turn order have earlier access to double matches, which can be significant.

For example, if p2 plays on 4 of the six exposed sides on their turn, that opens up two possibilities for double matches, which p3 and p4 could then capitalize on.


Yes, but just like the extra cards received in the first round, it's only a possibility, and one that you have no control over.

If I'm the 4th player, and the opponent's made a square, I have no extra opportunity for a double bonus.

And in all cases, my cards in hand are also a determinant factor.


(please see my edited first comment)

The extra cards are guaranteed, not just possible!

The real issue is what you're trying to make this game about. If you want a heavier game, make players bid points for turn order.


Again, the extra cards may not be useful. And you may not even get them if the opponent gives you a color that is exhausted.

Your proposed change is even more complex and gamery than mine.

I simply suggested a small bonus to offset start player advantage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Shampoo4you wrote:
And you may not even get them if the opponent gives you a color that is exhausted.

and wouldn't that be an objective of a good opponent?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TVis wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
And you may not even get them if the opponent gives you a color that is exhausted.

and wouldn't that be an objective of a good opponent?



Yes.

That's whole my point.

You can get screwed out of a card, or end up with a useless card. In fact, this will happen a vast majority of the time with the final round cards.

Thus going earlier is ALWAYS an advantage, whereas going later in turn order is only helpful in certain situation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Shampoo4you wrote:
You can get screwed out of a card, or end up with a useless card.

which is a luck element that helps to classify it as some sort of "Euro" as opposed to "abstract" or "puzzle".

Shampoo4you wrote:
In fact, this will happen a vast majority of the time with the final round cards.

Thus going earlier is ALWAYS an advantage, whereas going later in turn order is only helpful in certain situation.

Except for the beginning and end doesn't the concept of "round" sort of evaporate into "continuous"? There is always someone going before you and others after you ? Each of them experiencing the same disappointment along the way as you point out.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TVis wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
You can get screwed out of a card, or end up with a useless card.

which is a luck element that helps to classify it as some sort of "Euro" as opposed to "abstract" or "puzzle".

Shampoo4you wrote:
In fact, this will happen a vast majority of the time with the final round cards.

Thus going earlier is ALWAYS an advantage, whereas going later in turn order is only helpful in certain situation.

Except for the beginning and end doesn't the concept of "round" sort of evaporate into "continuous"? There is always someone going before you and others after you ? Each of them experiencing the same disappointment along the way as you point out.



On a table there is a large cookie, a medium cookie, a small cookie, and a crumb.

We take turns walking past said table. I go first. I take the large cookie. You take the medium cookie. I take the small cookie. You get a crumb.

My available rewards were strictly better, even though we took continuous turns, by virtue of me going earlier in the order.

It's a little more complex in Lanterns because you certainly don't get a reward every single turn, and it is also certainly possible that you get outpaced. But if skill and luck of the draw equalize, going earlier IS STRICTLY BETTER.

And that is how it is different from (possibly) gaining a extra cards at the end.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rami Finkelshtein
Canada
Waterloo
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Just another day on the staircase
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am a little confused about how in the first few turns any card that you receive can be deemed "not useful" All cards are useful in the early turns because they shape what you should do with your turn to guarantee that you have a dedication on turn 2 (since if they give you a dedication on turn 1 as player 4 then the other players should be flayed). Personally I really like this game because there is an evident first player disadvantage in the early game but a pretty nice first player advantage at the end of the game (since you can try to set it up that no matter what you end up getting you can have a dedication)

Edit: Also from many of my games the first dedication in a 4 player game is MUCH more likely to be made by player 2 or 3 instead of 1 since they have 7-8 cards by the time it comes around to them instead of player 1 who only has a maximum of 6 cards when it is their turn (and definitely doesn't have 2 favour tokens)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy Hoyt
United States
Dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm the publisher/lead developer on the game, and I'm always happy for people to play with variants that make the experience more enjoyable for them. If this makes the game more fun for your group, then please do it!

We were worried about a turn-order advantage at first and considered something like this for a time. But after watching a lot of games and studying a lot of stats, I don't believe it is necessary. I believe you are underestimating the advantages of going later. The later you go in the turn order, the more cards on average you'll have every turn. For example:

* Player 1 will have 1 card on Turn #1 and almost always 6 cards on Turn #2, and so on.
* Player 4 will almost always have 4 cards on Turn #1 and usually around 9 cards on Turn #2.
* Player 1 can only dedicate on Turn #2 if someone isn't paying attention, but Player 4 almost always dedicates on Turn #2. (Player 4 is the only one who might dedicate on Turn #1, but only if no one is paying attention.)
* Player 4 knows every other card they'll get when they place their last tile.

If I play with your group, I'll volunteer to be Player 4. I'll even give players 1-3 an extra favor token just to keep it interesting.

meeple
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaFink wrote:
I am a little confused about how in the first few turns any card that you receive can be deemed "not useful"


Is there someone in the thread who said anything like this?

If you were directing this at me, I have only ever talked about the cards you receive on the final turn. If you're later in turn order, you'll potentially receive 1, 2, or 3 cards if you are 2nd, 3rd, or 4th in turn order.

Those are the only cards I have talked about in terms of usefulness. I have no idea why you are referencing cards in the first few turns.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
randyhoyt wrote:
I'm the publisher/lead developer on the game, and I'm always happy for people to play with variants that make the experience more enjoyable for them. If this makes the game more fun for your group, then please do it!

We were worried about a turn-order advantage at first and considered something like this for a time. But after watching a lot of games and studying a lot of stats, I don't believe it is necessary. I believe you are underestimating the advantages of going later. The later you go in the turn order, the more cards on average you'll have every turn. For example:

* Player 1 will have 1 card on Turn #1 and almost always 6 cards on Turn #2, and so on.
* Player 4 will almost always have 4 cards on Turn #1 and usually around 9 cards on Turn #2.
* Player 1 can only dedicate on Turn #2 if someone isn't paying attention, but Player 4 almost always dedicates on Turn #2. (Player 4 is the only one who might dedicate on Turn #1, but only if no one is paying attention.)
* Player 4 knows every other card they'll get when they place their last tile.

If I play with your group, I'll volunteer to be Player 4. I'll even give players 1-3 an extra favor token just to keep it interesting.

meeple


I see your point, but I still think the opportunity and pace advantage outweighs the mystery cards you'll receive from your opponents (assuming they are paying attention to what they give you).

My variant actually works beautiful with your rationale, because with the Favor tokens, the players later in turn order have more control over what they can do with those extra cards.

I'll happily take you up on your offer, but only if we put some money on the line.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.