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Subject: How not to win a war... rss

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So we give ISIS a 45 minute warning with a leaflet drop that we are going to bomb their stuff.
Either fight the war to win or don't.

Here, pick your poison....
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+isis+45+minute+warning+bo...
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Sam I am
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The targets were oil tankers. The pentagon probably wanted to give them a "heads up" so the trucks could hide behind a tree or something.
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Damian
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Should we go back to the Vietnam War method of using "body count" to measure results? That worked out pretty well, and you'd probably get off seeing that on the news every night.
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J.D. Hall
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I particularly enjoyed the "fake" footage shot from the fighter-bombers showing the trucks lined up neatly in rows exploding from the effect of the alleged bombs.

Losers.
 
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J
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limiting civilian casualties while still taking out the target would seem to be a good thing, no?

I do think we should be bombing the oil fields too though.
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Steven Woodcock
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damiangerous wrote:
Should we go back to the Vietnam War method of using "body count" to measure results? That worked out pretty well, and you'd probably get off seeing that on the news every night.


That is an approach, but more importantly is that we really don't want to give the Bad Guys 45 minutes to hide, deploy anti-aircraft, drag civilians into the line of fire for propaganda purposes, etc.

I honestly don't know, but I wonder if Russia or France gave similar notices of "we're going to bomb here" ahead of time? I need to go find out.




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J.D. Hall
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I agree that militarily, it is a poor method in most cases. However, I haven't read or heard anything that this is SOP under the rules of engagement. It appears to me -- and yes, I could be wrong -- that this was a specific response to a specific situation, i.e. civilian drivers who were just trying to earn a living transporting oil. No reason to kill them, especially if the trucks themselves were put out of commission. By the way, the US has done in previous conflicts, starting with World War II.
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I'm trying to keep straight the ok and not ok ways to kill civilians:

drones: not ok
bombing: ok

is that right?
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Andy Beaton
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Does Daesh even have the means to shoot down modern Western military equipment?
This could serve the double purpose of saving innocent lives and emphasizing their impotence.
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J.D. Hall
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jmilum wrote:
I'm trying to keep straight the ok and not ok ways to kill civilians:

drones: not ok
bombing: ok

is that right?
You realize that, save military operations taking place in a desert/ocean, there are going to be civilian casualties. Here's a better way of putting it:

War=not OK
Peace=what the fuck is that?
 
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TheDashi wrote:

Either fight the war to win or don't.



We aren't at war. That takes an act of congress. We are just dabbling.
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casey r lowe
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aiabx wrote:
Does Daesh even have the means to shoot down modern Western military equipment?

no - daeshi is just a dumbass on rsp
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casey r lowe
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TheDashi wrote:
So we give ISIS a 45 minute warning with a leaflet drop that we are going to bomb their stuff.
Either fight the war to win or don't.

Here, pick your poison....
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+isis+45+minute+warning+bo...

we dropped countless warning leaflets in world war two (even on ordinary soldiers before an assault) and last i checked we won that war
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Boaty McBoatface
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Doing this does seem rather foolish, but then the US is trying to destroy assets, not kill people.

I can see the rationale, I just am not sure it will work.
 
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Anyone point out that these were predominantly civilian truck drivers yet?

Or are we still escalating the stupid?
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Sam I am
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The latter.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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single sentences wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
So we give ISIS a 45 minute warning with a leaflet drop that we are going to bomb their stuff.
Either fight the war to win or don't.

Here, pick your poison....
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+isis+45+minute+warning+bo...

we dropped countless warning leaflets in world war two (even on ordinary soldiers before an assault) and last i checked we won that war


There are a few reasons why we won that war that don't apply today:

1.) The US actually declared war
2.) The entire nation was behind going to war
3.) The leaders of the armed forces ran the war, not the politicians
4.) The United State citizenry didn't feel bad for the casualties
5.) The nations of Germany and Japan were our enemies, not a "movement" to create terror, or a "religion" of ideas
6.) We carpet bombed the crap out of entire cities en masse
7.) We used nuclear devices
8.) We used naval ships that fired small volkswagons from 500 miles away

There are, of course, many others. I think one of the big differences, even outside of the leaflet idea, is that there was support from the citizenry that the enemy (both German and Japanese) had to be stopped, and that there was no sympathy for the enemy. "Whatever it takes to win" was the attitude of nearly everyone during WWII. I don't think that is the case today, which makes these military conflicts (not wars) so much different.

I don't think the "leaflet" idea is the reason why we won. And it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Wars 70 years ago are completely different than they are now.
 
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rcbevco wrote:
The latter.



Seems to be a theme.
 
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Andy Beaton
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chrisnd wrote:
single sentences wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
So we give ISIS a 45 minute warning with a leaflet drop that we are going to bomb their stuff.
Either fight the war to win or don't.

Here, pick your poison....
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+isis+45+minute+warning+bo...

we dropped countless warning leaflets in world war two (even on ordinary soldiers before an assault) and last i checked we won that war


There are a few reasons why we won that war that don't apply today:

1.) The US actually declared war
2.) The entire nation was behind going to war
3.) The leaders of the armed forces ran the war, not the politicians
4.) The United State citizenry didn't feel bad for the casualties
5.) The nations of Germany and Japan were our enemies, not a "movement" to create terror, or a "religion" of ideas
6.) We carpet bombed the crap out of entire cities en masse
7.) We used nuclear devices
8.) We used naval ships that fired small volkswagons from 500 miles away

There are, of course, many others. I think one of the big differences, even outside of the leaflet idea, is that there was support from the citizenry that the enemy (both German and Japanese) had to be stopped, and that there was no sympathy for the enemy. "Whatever it takes to win" was the attitude of nearly everyone during WWII. I don't think that is the case today, which makes these military conflicts (not wars) so much different.

I don't think the "leaflet" idea is the reason why we won. And it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Wars 70 years ago are completely different than they are now.


I think the big difference is that Nazi Germany was a real live existential threat to Western democracies. They had the capacity to completely conquer large portions of the world and turn it into a genocidal wasteland. Daesh has the ability to control the least wanted parts of Iraq and Syria and kill hundreds of people outside their zone, instead of tens of millions. They aren't that big a threat compared the the old monsters, so they don't generate the same fear response.
Raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Nazis. Then raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Daesh.
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Christopher Seguin
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aiabx wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
single sentences wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
So we give ISIS a 45 minute warning with a leaflet drop that we are going to bomb their stuff.
Either fight the war to win or don't.

Here, pick your poison....
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+isis+45+minute+warning+bo...

we dropped countless warning leaflets in world war two (even on ordinary soldiers before an assault) and last i checked we won that war


There are a few reasons why we won that war that don't apply today:

1.) The US actually declared war
2.) The entire nation was behind going to war
3.) The leaders of the armed forces ran the war, not the politicians
4.) The United State citizenry didn't feel bad for the casualties
5.) The nations of Germany and Japan were our enemies, not a "movement" to create terror, or a "religion" of ideas
6.) We carpet bombed the crap out of entire cities en masse
7.) We used nuclear devices
8.) We used naval ships that fired small volkswagons from 500 miles away

There are, of course, many others. I think one of the big differences, even outside of the leaflet idea, is that there was support from the citizenry that the enemy (both German and Japanese) had to be stopped, and that there was no sympathy for the enemy. "Whatever it takes to win" was the attitude of nearly everyone during WWII. I don't think that is the case today, which makes these military conflicts (not wars) so much different.

I don't think the "leaflet" idea is the reason why we won. And it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Wars 70 years ago are completely different than they are now.


I think the big difference is that Nazi Germany was a real live existential threat to Western democracies. They had the capacity to completely conquer large portions of the world and turn it into a genocidal wasteland. Daesh has the ability to control the least wanted parts of Iraq and Syria and kill hundreds of people outside their zone, instead of tens of millions. They aren't that big a threat compared the the old monsters, so they don't generate the same fear response.
Raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Nazis. Then raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Daesh.


Yeah, I kind of said that. See my bold part.

But I get your point - thank you for clarifying what I was trying to convey. My point was "we didn't win because we dropped leaflets", or even more to the point of casey, "we didn't win despite the dropped leaflets". There were myriad reasons why we one, no of which had anything to do with "leaflet droppings".
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Andy Beaton
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chrisnd wrote:
aiabx wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
single sentences wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
So we give ISIS a 45 minute warning with a leaflet drop that we are going to bomb their stuff.
Either fight the war to win or don't.

Here, pick your poison....
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+isis+45+minute+warning+bo...

we dropped countless warning leaflets in world war two (even on ordinary soldiers before an assault) and last i checked we won that war


There are a few reasons why we won that war that don't apply today:

1.) The US actually declared war
2.) The entire nation was behind going to war
3.) The leaders of the armed forces ran the war, not the politicians
4.) The United State citizenry didn't feel bad for the casualties
5.) The nations of Germany and Japan were our enemies, not a "movement" to create terror, or a "religion" of ideas
6.) We carpet bombed the crap out of entire cities en masse
7.) We used nuclear devices
8.) We used naval ships that fired small volkswagons from 500 miles away

There are, of course, many others. I think one of the big differences, even outside of the leaflet idea, is that there was support from the citizenry that the enemy (both German and Japanese) had to be stopped, and that there was no sympathy for the enemy. "Whatever it takes to win" was the attitude of nearly everyone during WWII. I don't think that is the case today, which makes these military conflicts (not wars) so much different.

I don't think the "leaflet" idea is the reason why we won. And it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Wars 70 years ago are completely different than they are now.


I think the big difference is that Nazi Germany was a real live existential threat to Western democracies. They had the capacity to completely conquer large portions of the world and turn it into a genocidal wasteland. Daesh has the ability to control the least wanted parts of Iraq and Syria and kill hundreds of people outside their zone, instead of tens of millions. They aren't that big a threat compared the the old monsters, so they don't generate the same fear response.
Raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Nazis. Then raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Daesh.


Yeah, I kind of said that. See my bold part.

But I get your point - thank you for clarifying what I was trying to convey. My point was "we didn't win because we dropped leaflets", or even more to the point of casey, "we didn't win despite the dropped leaflets". There were myriad reasons why we one, no of which had anything to do with "leaflet droppings".


Now that I think about it, a leaflet campaign is a good morale bruiser *if* you have the military capacity to follow it up. It has to be tough to get a warning that we are coming to kill you and your leadership is powerless to stop us.
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casey r lowe
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chrisnd wrote:
There are a few reasons why we won that war that don't apply today:

1.) The US actually declared war

which was a moot point after pearl harbor and the japanese dow

chrisnd wrote:
2.) The entire nation was behind going to war

not at all - the majority was against it before pearl harbor

chrisnd wrote:
3.) The leaders of the armed forces ran the war, not the politicians

eisenhowers office for example was extremely political and the top command had its fair share of blunders like market garden or italy (letting the germans retreat after both the invasion of siciliy and anzio) or hurtgen forest or iwo jima

chrisnd wrote:
4.) The United State citizenry didn't feel bad for the casualties

sure they did and our military strategy was much more conservative due to concern over casualties than the germans or russians

chrisnd wrote:
5.) The nations of Germany and Japan were our enemies, not a "movement" to create terror, or a "religion" of ideas

wwii was very much a war of ideologies (fascism vs communism vs democracy) - the difference nowadays is that there arent any front lines and from the pov of the insurgents that is very smart

chrisnd wrote:
6.) We carpet bombed the crap out of entire cities en masse

the usaaf bombing campaign focused mainly on daylight precision bombing on industrial targets with dresden and tokyo and a few other cities as the exceptions - it was the british who conducted fire bombings on civilian centers at night

chrisnd wrote:
7.) We used nuclear devices

which was so horrible they havent been used since

chrisnd wrote:
8.) We used naval ships that fired small volkswagons from 500 miles away

lolwut
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aiabx wrote:


I think the big difference is that Nazi Germany was a real live existential threat to Western democracies. They had the capacity to completely conquer large portions of the world and turn it into a genocidal wasteland. Daesh has the ability to control the least wanted parts of Iraq and Syria and kill hundreds of people outside their zone, instead of tens of millions. They aren't that big a threat compared the the old monsters, so they don't generate the same fear response.
Raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Nazis. Then raise your hand if you have a relative killed by Daesh.


True, the Nazi's they had real tangible military industrial complexes for their war machine. They had hard targets, and they didn't blend into the population too well. ISIS is mobile and blend into the populace at will to hide their numbers.

On the upside, they will never have a military industrial complex, they will never build tanks, they will never build ships, they will never build fighter jets, they will never be a global player other than to occasionally hit newsworthy soft targets.
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