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Subject: Number 1 Strategay game! rss

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Andy G
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just hit wow
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Well you beat me to it... I'm a little shocked if I'm honest. Haven't played of course-mine arrives Friday. This is kinda momentous, no?
 
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Evan Beach
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This is hugely momentous. It seems on track (if it gets enough voters) to crack #1 overall. It has an obscene avg rating of 8.95!!
 
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Andy G
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and now it's back at number 2.
Haters have begun to kick in and hit it

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Andy G
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look at these PATHETIC guys rates&comments:

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This is a temporary rating until the game is has been out 6 months. It's is complete utter lunacy that a game can reach this high this fast. It's showing a serious flaw in BGG ranking system.



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rating pending until then, but personally hope it doesnt exceed porto rico




Ridicoulous haters... particulary that Jacob Willam guy
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Unfortunately this goes bothways. TS has gotten a large amount of 1 ratings the last weeks. There's a strong correlation with ratings of 10 for PL... In particular I would like to mention "ervvalter" giving all other top-ten games rating 1 shake
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James Clarke
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Wow, what a load of absurd comments that folk have been posting in the ratings section.

The best yet is:-

Quote:
I own the blue edition.

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Donald Dimitroff
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He rates it a 10.

Honestly OP, you should really stop worrying about this. Individual numbers and rankings don't mean anything.


 
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Kai Mölleken
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The funny thing is that if you stuck to BGG's proposed rating criteria one could argue that you couldn't even give this game a 10.

Because nobody (who's honest) could say that they don't expect that they will not be willing to play the game anymore at some point in the future.

I'd suspect that only a small margin of players would actually be willing to buy another copy of the game once they finished it.

I know that many people don't stick to BGG's criteria anyway, but still I found this a little amusing.

Disclaimer: I haven't played Pandemic Legacy yet (I would like to though!) and I don't care either way, whether it's at #1, #2 or #8520. Imho people tend get way too worked up about the ratings anyway.
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Bart Rachemoss
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Kaermo wrote:
The funny thing is that if you stuck to BGG's proposed rating criteria one could argue that you couldn't even give this game a 10.
You are mixing up "proposed criteria" with "suggested guidelines". If you are going to try to be pedantic then please don't mix words up. The suggestions can't cover every case exactly which is probably why the are just suggestions.
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Because nobody (who's honest) could say that they don't expect that they will not be willing to play the game anymore at some point in the future.
Honesty has nothing to do with it. Please avoid the ad hominem. If someone thinks it has provided the greatest gaming experience they have ever had then of course they should rate the game a 10 even if that does not perfectly match the suggested guidelines. Your idea that people should never give a legacy game a rating of 10 even if it has been the best gaming experience of their life is silly.

I imagine most games go through a honeymoon period where the rating it gets from an individual is higher at first and then drops a little. This will happen with PL. The question is: when someone looks back on PL a year after they first played it will they think:
Quote:
Yeah, I had a great time but there are better games now
or will they think:
Quote:
That was the greatest gaming experience of my life!

If it is the first, then their rating should be lowered, but if it is the second, then their rating should remain high.

IMO, plenty of great plays and the greatest gaming experience of your life trumps "Always want to play, expect this will never change." Since the legacy mechanism is very well advertised here, giving a legacy game a 10 should not cause any confusion. OTOH, artificially lowering the ratings of all legacy games would cause some confusion and make the ratings less useful. For example, I have some trepidation about the legacy mechanic. But I really like Pandemic. All the great reviews and high ratings of PL convinced me to get it. If PL were penalized in the ratings due to the legacy mechanic (let's say an automatic -1 from the current ratings) then that would penalize it twice for the same thing.

It is better for everyone if your ratings follow your heart rather than adhere pedantically to the suggested guidelines.
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Bart,

BGG suggested guidelines are really bad, so I wouldn't worry to much about them to begin with. They mash two very different questions together on one scale: (1) "How good is this game objectively?", which nobody can really answer, and (2) "How often do you want to play this game?", which is a poor indicator of how enjoyable the game is. Couple it with the fact that a 1-10 scale is way too long to answer if you like something or not, and that inherently any rating is about how big part of the population likes vs dislikes the game, rather than the game itself.

A few obvious examples.

- If I bought Twilight Struggle I would rate it a 1, because it's not my kind of game. How would this rating be useful to anyone? The game's rank becomes about how many people had wrong expectations and got disappointed rather than anything about the quality of the game.

- If I rate it a 1, according to the BGG guidelines, it "Defies description of a game." I must be really egocentric and foolish to presume that just because I don't like something it means that it's worthless.

- Now say I buy Hanabi, love it, and play it 50 times. After that I burn out and really don't want to play it again, because I have other new exciting games that I haven't played to death. What do you want me to rate it, a 3? Which says that it's "Bad"? Or should I rate it a 9 and say that I will "Always want to play" it even though I don't want to play it at all?

- And that's aside all the people who rate games they never played just to make some point, as exemplified above.

So who cares about BGG ratings? I would imagine more experienced geeks don't use them anyway in their decision making. I can't see how someone can buy a game blindly just because it's a top 10, unless this person loves all types of games equally, plays at all player counts, with all session lengths, is interested in all possible themes, and in the lack of a theme, and all people in this gaming group are like this as well.
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Clive Jones

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Th334 wrote:
Now say I buy Hanabi, love it, and play it 50 times. After that I burn out and really don't want to play it again, because I have other new exciting games that I haven't played to death. What do you want me to rate it, a 3? Which says that it's "Bad"? Or should I rate it a 9 and say that I will "Always want to play" it even though I don't want to play it at all?

I do take your point, in the general sense.

On the other hand, I've played Dominion 500 times, I'm still not bored of it, yet I "only" gave it 9.5 . I'm not sure I'd give more than about 7.5 to something I'd tire of after fifty plays. Maybe 8.0 if those fifty plays were amazing. (Though there's nothing wrong with buying a game I won't play fifty times; I think 6.5 is my approximate threshold for being willing to buy something.)

As noted several, Legacy is an awkward special case. The question should, perhaps, be "would you play more months of this if they existed?" not "do you want to play the same months again?"
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clivej wrote:
Th334 wrote:
Now say I buy Hanabi, love it, and play it 50 times. After that I burn out and really don't want to play it again, because I have other new exciting games that I haven't played to death. What do you want me to rate it, a 3? Which says that it's "Bad"? Or should I rate it a 9 and say that I will "Always want to play" it even though I don't want to play it at all?

I do take your point, in the general sense.

On the other hand, I've played Dominion 500 times, I'm still not bored of it, yet I "only" gave it 9.5 . I'm not sure I'd give more than about 7.5 to something I'd tire of after fifty plays. Maybe 8.0 if those fifty plays were amazing. (Though there's nothing wrong with buying a game I won't play fifty times; I think 6.5 is my approximate threshold for being willing to buy something.)

As noted several, Legacy is an awkward special case. The question should, perhaps, be "would you play more months of this if they existed?" not "do you want to play the same months again?"

I was talking about BGG suggested rating scale.

But speaking of replayability in general, I think your experience might be an exception to the general trend. I'm willing to bet that 95% games of 95% people on BGG haven't been played 50+ times and never will, ever. Despite of what the owners were intending when buying them. Geeks have too many games, and more and more are coming out. It's exciting to buy new games, explore new designs, and grow your collection. Most people don't have enough time to play their games hundreds of times.

In terms of entertainment per dollar most games are great value already if you can enjoy 15 plays out of them, even less if it's a cheap game and you're sharing it with a larger group. (For an average first-world citizen who has the luxury of having a hobby like board gaming that is.)
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Highland Cow wrote:

Wow, what a load of absurd comments that folk have been posting in the ratings section.

The best yet is:-

Quote:
I own the blue edition.

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Donald Dimitroff
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He rates it a 10.


Speaking of absurdity, I don't know what this guy did to merit this completely random attack.

Comments aren't posted in the ratings section. They're posted in the comments field of your collection. The fact that they happen to be shown alongside the ratings doesn't mean all comments have to be explanations of the rating.
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Quote:
The funny thing is that if you stuck to BGG's proposed rating criteria one could argue that you couldn't even give this game a 10.

Because nobody (who's honest) could say that they don't expect that they will not be willing to play the game anymore at some point in the future.

I'd suspect that only a small margin of players would actually be willing to buy another copy of the game once they finished it.


Wanting to play and being willing to pay arbitrarily high sums of money to play are not the same thing. If anything, the more expensive it is to keep playing, the more likely it is that someone's desire to keep playing will go unmet—and so they'll always want to play and will expect that that will never change. I.e., the perfect definition of a 10.

I see no reason why I'd be unwilling to play the game in the future. I hope my friends will buy copies and invite me to play. In fact, I'll actively encourage them to buy copies and invite me to play. I don't see what the problem is here.
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GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!


Not that there's anything wrong with that....
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GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!


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BitJam wrote:
You are mixing up "proposed criteria" with "suggested guidelines".


Who's being pedantic now?

And maybe this didn't come across properly but I don't argue with anyone who rates it a 10. That's their opinion and totally fine. As I've already said, I haven't played it, so I certainly won't judge.

The point I was getting at is that BGG's rating guidelines (better? ) are not well fit to rate games like Pandemic Legacy or T.I.M.E Stories due to their limit of replayability which is inherent in their concepts but an important factor in BGG's guidelines.

The fact that I was arguing that you shouldn't be able to rate the game a 10 if you decided to stick to their guidelines doesn't mean that I would think that this was the only way to rate a game. It just shows that there's a disparity between BGG's rating guidelines and how the users actually rate their games.

But on the flipside one could just as well argue that all those who rate the game a 10 would always want to play it again if they could do so and have the same experience.

Th334 wrote:
I can't see how someone can buy a game blindly just because it's a top 10, unless this person loves all types of games equally, plays at all player counts, with all session lengths, is interested in all possible themes, and in the lack of a theme, and all people in this gaming group are like this as well.


Sounds a lot like me and still I don't really care about the rankings
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Kaermo wrote:
The point I was getting at is that BGG's rating guidelines (better? ) are not well fit to rate games like Pandemic Legacy or T.I.M.E Stories due to their limit of replayability which is inherent in their concepts but an important factor in BGG's guidelines.

We are in agreement here. Their suggestions don't cover all cases which is why they are merely suggestions to give people a general idea of how to rate games. As mere suggestions they work well and don't need to be changed.

What rankled me was when you implied that anyone who didn't strictly follow the suggested guidelines was being dishonest. As long as we all keep in mind the guidelines are merely suggestions then there is no problem. The guidelines are fine as their are even when they don't cover all cases and people aren't being dishonest by not following them exactly especially when rating games where the guidelines don't fit well.

ISTM you created a problem out of thin are by changing "suggested guidelines" to "proposed criteria" because that gave you a leg to stand on to suggest that people were being dishonest. When your entire argument is based on twisting around the meaning of words, my pointing that out is not pedantic; it is clearing up a misunderstanding.

Edit: typo
 
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BitJam wrote:
What rankled me was when you implied that anyone who didn't strictly follow the suggested guidelines was being dishonest. As long as we all keep in mind the guidelines are merely suggestions then there is no problem. The guidelines are fine as their are even when they don't cover all cases and people aren't being dishonest by not following them exactly especially when rating games where the guidelines don't fit well.


I didn't (mean to) imply that people are being dishonest, what I meant was that they did obviously did not follow BGG's suggestion to rate games a 10 which they "always want to play and expect that will never change". I think we just misunderstood each other.

BitJam wrote:
ISTM you created a problem out of thin are by changing "suggested guidelines" to "proposed criteria" because that gave you a leg to stand on to suggest that people were being dishonest. When your entire argument is based on twisting around the meaning of words, my pointing that out is not pedantic; it is clearing up a misunderstanding.


"Suggested guidelines" and "proposed criteria" are pretty much the same in my mind. If they are not, please forgive someone who's native language is not English, ok?

And as I have already said, my point was not that anybody was being dishonest. I won't argue anyone's opinions about the game.

Let's just accept that there were misunderstandings on both sides and leave it at that.

Game's back up on #1 strategy game anyway, no matter what we think of BGG's rating guidelines
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For the record, we ordered our second copy of Pandemic Legacy yesterday. So yeah, I stand by my 10.
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Amuk wrote:
GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!


Not that there's anything wrong with that....


This made me LOL.
 
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creevedog wrote:
Amuk wrote:
GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!


Not that there's anything wrong with that....


This made me LOL.

SeerMagic wrote:
GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!



Come on people, that "1" doesn't mean that it's the #1 Strategy game, it means that it's the highest rated game that has a Strategy tag. There's a difference.

Although I personally think that Pandemic has a lot of strategy, particularly Legacy. Most especially when compared to other popular challenging co-ops that are heavily tactical, like Ghost Stories or Shadowrun Crossfire. (Although Shadowrun has Legacy-like character upgrades too, but other than that the gameplay is very tactical.)

/startrant
And on a side note it's getting quite boring seeing people on this site that believe that games that they enjoy deserve better than they got, whereas games that they don't enjoy are worthless and can be slapped with unjustified irony as if it's a consensus that these games are inferior. Look around yourself! You're 1 out of 7,300,000,000, and all of the other 7,299,999,999 have opinions that are just as valid and important as yours.
/endrant
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Th334 wrote:
creevedog wrote:
Amuk wrote:
GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!


Not that there's anything wrong with that....


This made me LOL.

SeerMagic wrote:
GThreepwood wrote:
Number 1 Strategay game!



Come on people, that "1" doesn't mean that it's the #1 Strategy game, it means that it's the highest rated game that has a Strategy tag. There's a difference.

Although I personally think that Pandemic has a lot of strategy, particularly Legacy. Most especially when compared to other popular challenging co-ops that are heavily tactical, like Ghost Stories or Shadowrun Crossfire. (Although Shadowrun has Legacy-like character upgrades too, but other than that the gameplay is very tactical.)

/startrant
And on a side note it's getting quite boring seeing people on this site that believe that games that they enjoy deserve better than they got, whereas games that they don't enjoy are worthless and can be slapped with unjustified irony as if it's a consensus that these games are inferior. Look around yourself! You're 1 out of 7,300,000,000, and all of the other 7,299,999,999 have opinions that are just as valid and important as yours.
/endrant


I think you misunderstood. I was LOL'ing at the Seinfeld reference made as a result of an unfortunate typo. It had nothing to do with the game.
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Oh, there is a typo there, I see...

So nobody was laughing at the words "Pandemic" and "Strategy" in the same sentence? In that case my rant was a little random. ninja
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Th334 wrote:
Look around yourself! You're 1 out of 7,300,000,000, and all of the other 7,299,999,999 have opinions that are just as valid and important as yours.

I take your point, but...
The late, great Douglas Adams wrote:
All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

:-p
 
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