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Subject: Questions about the game (scored 149 points on lvl 4) rss

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Shuyang Ren
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So here is my main two questions about the rules:

First, can you destroy aging cards with cards that has the ability "Destroy"? It seems to me that it was a cheap way out the whole aging thing. Draw 4, oh a "-5"?, just tap to destroy it and never have to worry about it.

Second, do you lose if you go through all the aging cards? Yes, I mean all 11 of them. I would expect that you die of aging at that point (thematically). But nothing in the rules says anything about running out of aging cards.


Why I ask these two questions - my last game I scored an absurdly 149 points on lvl 4. This is what I did: I massed on draw cards, exchange cards, and destroy cards. I saved on life gain cards (even if they fight for zero) and mimics. Basically, instead of trying to delay aging, I over expand on every fight during mid game (yellow) after I gather all the pieces during early game (green). I draw as many cards as I can, then use exchange to trade away used cards and to draw more. I drew through my entire Robinson deck over a dozen time during that game. I ended up with a lot of aging cards, but I just destroyed them. Mimic helps me with flexibility: either if I need to draw more cards, gain life, or destroy. By the time I reached late game (red), I went through every aging cards and destroyed them. I create very long loops of drawing, exchanging, copying and do it over again. Every time I go through my deck I get like 6 health back. Over and over when I fought the pirates I have only good cards and draw cards. By the end of the game I had all my 18 life back, plus the two extra life. I solved all but 6 hazards. I had a total of 37 fight power in my deck, no aging cards, and of course I beat the two pirates. So I ended up with 37 + 20*5 + 15*2 - 3*6 = 149 points.

Now if either that I can't destroy aging cards, or if I die by having no aging cards left, this strategy would fall apart. But nothing in the rules says anything about this (at least I couldn't find any).

OP strategy? or a misread on rules?
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Disenculture wrote:
First, can you destroy aging cards with cards that has the ability "Destroy"? It seems to me that it was a cheap way out the whole aging thing. Draw 4, oh a "-5"?, just tap to destroy it and never have to worry about it.

Sure - the trick is in having both the Destroy and the Aging Card in play at the same time. That's not a given.


Disenculture wrote:
Second, do you lose if you go through all the aging cards? Yes, I mean all 11 of them. I would expect that you die of aging at that point (thematically). But nothing in the rules says anything about running out of aging cards.

No, you don't die and can keep going. It's quite unusual to have this happen, however.

Disenculture wrote:
Why I ask these two questions - my last game I scored an absurdly 149 points on lvl 4. This is what I did: I massed on draw cards, exchange cards, and destroy cards. I saved on life gain cards (even if they fight for zero) and mimics. Basically, instead of trying to delay aging, I over expand on every fight during mid game (yellow) after I gather all the pieces during early game (green). I draw as many cards as I can, then use exchange to trade away used cards and to draw more. I drew through my entire Robinson deck over a dozen time during that game. I ended up with a lot of aging cards, but I just destroyed them. Mimic helps me with flexibility: either if I need to draw more cards, gain life, or destroy. By the time I reached late game (red), I went through every aging cards and destroyed them. I create very long loops of drawing, exchanging, copying and do it over again. Every time I go through my deck I get like 6 health back. Over and over when I fought the pirates I have only good cards and draw cards. By the end of the game I had all my 18 life back, plus the two extra life. I solved all but 6 hazards. I had a total of 37 fight power in my deck, no aging cards, and of course I beat the two pirates. So I ended up with 37 + 20*5 + 15*2 - 3*6 = 149 points.

Now if either that I can't destroy aging cards, or if I die by having no aging cards left, this strategy would fall apart. But nothing in the rules says anything about this (at least I couldn't find any).

OP strategy? or a misread on rules?

I strongly suspect rules problems. I don't have time to go into all this now in detail; if nobody else does so I'll re-visit. (That may not happen for a few days; I'm going to have a house full for the holiday weekend.)
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Juan Crespo
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If you're just a beginner then the score is suspect. And its really hard to get long draw cycles without running through your life reserves. But yes, you can destroy aging cards. And you don't lose by drawing all aging cards.

One thing to keep in mind is that once destroyed, you can't exchange the face down card.
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Franklin1742 wrote:
juanma99 wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that once destroyed, you can't exchange the face down card.

True. And it might also be important here that, even if it's penalty is neutralised, any destroyed card still counts against the free card count.

Yup - the destroyed card gets turned face down, still counts as one of the drawn cards, and isn't physically discarded until after the current hazard has been completed.

Also, I don't see any mention of spending life to draw those long chains of cards. There are certainly cards that help with that, but getting to a point where you have all you need isn't easy.
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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Hm, with only so few cards left in the hazard deck... do you have fight against EACH hazard card - or do you have always drawn two, chosen one, and discarded the other?
That is a common mistake.

Thing is, there are 5 "-1" cards and a good deal of "0" cards in the initial Robinson deck.

If the game runs prefectly, meaning: I win every fight, there will be 15 cards after green left, 7 cards after yellow and 3 cards after red. But thats near to impossible, since you have to compensate the 5 "-1" cards. This CAN be done with the +2 and +1 cards, but you would still only win difficulty 0 hazards - which will not give you combat strenght, and also you would keep those -1s in your robinson deck.

Mhh, another thought: maybe you have destroyed cards for the life points you have paid to draw more cards?
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Mark L
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In have to agree with everyone else that there seems to be something wrong here. I've played Friday 125 times, and most of those have been at level 4. My highest score at level 4 was 146.

Now, I'm not claiming there's no possibility that you are just that good, but I do wonder...

I usually end with only 6 or 7 hazard cards undefeated, and I occasionally have no aging cards left to draw, but I don't think I've ever run out of them and then had to reshuffle my deck again.

One of the problems I often encounter is that I have several "destroy" cards, but they don't come up at the same time as aging cards. If I've already beaten the hazard, or am far below what I'll need to do so, it seems pointless to spend a lot of life drawing extra cards in the hope of getting one that's useful. Early on, life is far too precious to waste. Later, you could maybe afford to do so, but each life point is 5 points at the end, so I'm very much inclined to save them where possible.

And cards that give you more life or free draws aren't so common that it's worth digging for them. You might just waste life points, or you might turn up another aging card, or a card that you'll wish you had kept for the next hazard.
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Shuyang Ren
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Okay guys I took note of all your rule clarifications and tried to repeat the process. I got 156 points. Again, I regained all my life back, went through the aging deck, and destroyed every aging card I can.

Since some of you questioned my method for being to "vague", I will elaborate.

The early stage game is all about going for easy hazard instead of difficult ones. I gather the pieces. It's tempting to fail hard hazard to get rid of bad cards, but by getting that one extra destroy card or draw card will pay you back in the long run since they themselves can weed out the bad cards during tasks.

After I finish green I had a pretty good feeling about my strength. A little bit more into yellow I started going aggressive, in that I try to play as many cards as I can for every hazard. Exchange, draw, gain life to pay life for draw, etc. I do this over and over so I can get both destroy cards and aging cards into play to get rid of the aging cards. Exchange in case I fuck up, pay life if I am out of draws to see if I can land on another exchange or draw, etc. This runs through your deck very fast. I was very liberal with paying life because the sooner I get through the deck, I get some of the life back in redrawing lifegain cards as well as resetting the deck.

Of course, it's not like it was easy. It is not until the first pirate that I was able to destroy all the aging cards in my deck. I still ended up with a single copy of weak in my deck at the end of the game. By the second pirate I had 5 life left, but all the aging cards are gone for good.

I should mention that on this run, I found a new combo I can use. This trick gained all my life back.

Basically, the whole point of my tactics is to play ALL the cards in your deck by the last pirate. Actually, play as many cards as you can through out the game. The more cards = more life gain and chance to weed out bad cards. Of course, you still have to wait for the right resources, which is why early game is just gathering up cheap cards.

But once the aging pile is gone, and you have the deck for the second pirate, I just ran through the entire deck. Played literally everything. The trick is that you leave 2 cards in your deck (including discard pile). Then through exchange you replace the deck with mimicry, eat food (+2 hp), and another exchange. The fact that exchange basically allow you to use the cards once more after you draw them means that with 2x Exchange, 2x Mimicry, 1x Eat, you create and infinite loop of exchanging cards back and forth in your 2 card deck. And every time that eat comes back up you gain 2 life. I checked the loop and trust me it works, just try it yourself with these 5 cards. With it, I gained back all my life, and got that bonus points from doing so.

EDITED for grammar and sentence clarity.
 
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Juan Crespo
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Disenculture wrote:
Okay guys I took note of all your rule clarifications and tried to repeat the process. I got 156 points. Again, I regained all my life back, went through the aging deck, and destroyed every aging card I can.

Since some of you questioned my method for being to "vague", I will elaborate.

The early stage game is all about going for easy hazard instead of difficult ones. I gather the pieces. It's tempting to fail hard hazard to get rid of bad cards, but by getting that one extra destroy card or draw card will pay you back in the long run since they themselves can weed out the bad cards during tasks.

After I finish green I had a pretty good feeling about my strength. A little bit more into yellow I started going aggressive, in that I try to play as many cards as I can for every hazard. Exchange, draw, gain life to pay life for draw, etc. I do this over and over so I can get both destroy cards and aging cards into play to get rid of the aging cards. Exchange in case I fuck up, pay life if I am out of draws to see if I can land on another exchange or draw, etc. This runs through your deck very fast. I was very liberal with paying life because the sooner I get through the deck, I get some of the life back in redrawing lifegain cards as well as resetting the deck.

Of course, it's not like it was easy. It is not until the first pirate that I was able to destroy all the aging cards in my deck. I still ended up with a single copy of weak in my deck at the end of the game. By the second pirate I had 5 life left, but all the aging cards are gone for good.

I should mention that on this run, I found a new combo I can use. This trick gained all my life back.

Basically, the whole point of my tactics is to play ALL the cards in your deck by the last pirate. Actually, play as many cards as you can through out the game. The more cards = more life gain and chance to weed out bad cards. Of course, you still have to wait for the right resources, which is why early game is just gathering up cheap cards.

But once the aging pile is gone, and you have the deck for the second pirate, I just ran through the entire deck. Played literally everything. The trick is that you leave 2 cards in your deck (including discard pile). Then through exchange you replace the deck with mimicry, eat food (+2 hp), and another exchange. The fact that exchange basically allow you to use the cards once more after you draw them means that with 2x Exchange, 2x Mimicry, 1x Eat, you create and infinite loop of exchanging cards back and forth in your 2 card deck. And every time that eat comes back up you gain 2 life. I checked the loop and trust me it works, just try it yourself with these 5 cards. With it, I gained back all my life, and got that bonus points from doing so.

EDITED for grammar and sentence clarity.

Sorry, but now I'm more convinced than before that you're getting something wrong from the rules. There is no way to get infinite loop combos, as you exhaust your cards after using their abilities... Plus during your first run through the green level, you need to actually lose at least half of your battles in order to cull your deck.

I recommend you watch a video and figure out if there's something you're missing. Your description makes it sound really simple. And at it is not.
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Shuyang Ren
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Since people asked about the infinite loop:

Conditions:

5 cards: exchange x 2, mimicry x 2, eat food (+2 life)x 1.
You played every other card you got, aging deck is empty, and all that is left in your deck (including the discard pile, assumed to be empty for now after you cycled through it) is 2 cards, which is any of the 5 cards I mentioned above. Assume none of these guys are used yet for the sake of argument but there is so many ways to adjust your board state if some of them are used (other cards like below the stack can help this set up). It really doesn't matter since I am just here to prove that the loop exists.

So lets say: deck has mimicry and exchange.
Board has mimicry, exchange, eat.
Use eat to +2 life. eat used.
exchange tapped to discard eat and mimicry, draw 2.
So now you have new mimicry, new exchange (these drawn from you deck just now), and another exchange (which is used).
use the new exchange to discard mimicry and used exchange - draw back eat and mimicry.
So unused mimicry, used exchange, and eat on board - mimicry and exchange in deck.
Use eat + 2 life. use mimicry to exchange the actual exchange card and eat.

Etcetc. You get the idea. Just try it yourself.

Idk why you guys are so skeptical about this. But if you just think about it when you have 2 cards left in the deck exchange basically reset your cards. With effectively 4 exchange you just keep cycling cards and loop it indefinitely.
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Shuyang Ren
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jwreschnig wrote:
juanma99 wrote:
There is no way to get infinite loop combos, as you exhaust your cards after using their abilities...

Cards discarded or placed below the stack and then redrawn come back into play unused. With no aging card, the discard just becomes the draw pile. So infinite loops are definitely possible, but all the ones I can make work don't do anything as spectacular as infinite life.

(I'm more skeptical that the conditions can be reliably set up, especially against arbitrary pirates, than I am that there's some mega-life-loop.)



This.

IDK I played this game like 5 times and in my last two runs I was able to set up the loop conditions. Maybe I am lucky but I will play more to see.
 
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Shuyang Ren
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Franklin1742 wrote:
Disenculture wrote:
The trick is that you leave 2 cards in your deck (including discard pile). Then through exchange you replace the deck with mimicry, eat food (+2 hp), and another exchange.

Do you mean Below the Stack, since Exchanged cards are discarded? You can recycle Below the Stack* cards, but there is no 2 x Below the Stack.

*Edit: The rulebook says 'Below the stack', the card itself says '1 x below the pile',



No I mean exchange (put 2 cards into discard, draw 2). Since you only have 2 cards in your deck, you basically draw the cards and then the discarded cards becomes your new deck.
 
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Juan Crespo
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Either you're crazy good and I tip my hat to you, but then I see this
Disenculture wrote:
I played this game like 5 times and in my last two runs I was able to set up the loop conditions.
The conditions you describe seem hypothetical, and hard to attain in real gameplay. With other folks here, I have +100 games combined under their belt. Call me skeptical. Im a bit more interested in how you cull your deck from 0's and -1 cards. How long does it take?
It's really hard to completely rid your deck of 0's and -1's. Those are the real drag at higher levels, and bring any combos to a halt.
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Am I dim? How do players cycle through a deck so quickly and trim it so severely? Doing each of these things costs a lot of life points (drawing extra cards = +1, removing cards = losing fights). How do you do this coz I need to know :) Feel like I've been playing with my foot on the brake - am I doing something wrong?
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Shuyang Ren
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Franklin1742 wrote:
Your description was a bit disjointed. To summarise you are saying that this loop is built at the point when the total number of fighting points required to defeat the second pirate has been safely reached, and you continue playing just to cycle through the discard, deck and board in order to build the life points back up to max, before declaring the fight over. Would that be it?


More or less. I mean if I played my entire deck except two cards I probably should have killed the pirate.

Another thing to mention is during normal fights (around yellow), I would over expand just to see if I can put more cards onto the table even when I already have secured the win. Especially with cards like "draw 2".
 
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Shuyang Ren
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juanma99 wrote:
Either you're crazy good and I tip my hat to you, but then I see this
Disenculture wrote:
I played this game like 5 times and in my last two runs I was able to set up the loop conditions.
The conditions you describe seem hypothetical, and hard to attain in real gameplay. With other folks here, I have +100 games combined under their belt. Call me skeptical. Im a bit more interested in how you cull your deck from 0's and -1 cards. How long does it take?
It's really hard to completely rid your deck of 0's and -1's. Those are the real drag at higher levels, and bring any combos to a halt.


I normally can get rid most of the -1 by the time I hit yellow. There are times in the game where I find myself getting screwed by these cards but other cards such as exchange and destroy really help me control the board.
 
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Shuyang Ren
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huffa2 wrote:
Am I dim? How do players cycle through a deck so quickly and trim it so severely? Doing each of these things costs a lot of life points (drawing extra cards = +1, removing cards = losing fights). How do you do this coz I need to know Feel like I've been playing with my foot on the brake - am I doing something wrong?


I dont' know but apparantly this whole going through your deck over 20 times thing isn't very common among players or something since not alot of people here get what I am saying.

I mean the aging deck make you think that it's bad to go through your deck quickly (since you get more aging cards). But I think if you get the right pieces you can utilize exchange and draws to pack your board with utility every hazard, and then using cards like exchange, mimicry, and destory to either temporally or permanatly remove bad cards
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I've played 175 games; most of those at level 5. I'm not interested so much in what you do once you've achieved that position as I am how you get there in the first place. It's how you reach the crossover point when you have the cards to become aggressive that I question.

I'm not sure I want to get into an extended discussion about strategy, certainly not outside of the strategy folder. What I'd like to see instead is a play by play account of what you're doing through the green deck and into the yellow; I'm pretty sure that would reveal a rules misunderstanding of some sort.

That could happen either via play be forum, where someone could deal cards for you and you could decide what to do with them, or via a Vassal or Cyberboard game where you could upload a file after playing.

Or you could just forget all that and keep playing as you are. In that case, I'd suggest it's time for you to step up to level 5. You do that by playing exactly as in level 4 with the exception that you start with 16 life instead of 18. If that's still too easy, try 15, etc. Doing that will help you find a challenging level quickly.
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Mark James Schryver
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I just did a quick check of the old spreadsheet. I've won 39 games at level 4: lowest score 51; highest score 116; average score 78.

I don't track or score losses, but I know I've won over 200 games, and I'm very sure that I win over half the time.

Point being, I'm not trying to brag, but I think I'm pretty good at this game.

I can't for the life of me figure out what you're doing on the Green level. I've read your explanations, and they make absolutely no sense.

Your infinite loop? Check. Brilliant.

Your overall strategy? Check. At-least-theoretically brilliant.

How you get through the Green level, with your deck being all set up so that your strategy will work? I have no idea.

For that matter, how you get through the Green level, still alive? I have no idea.

Can you maybe explain that part a little more clearly? From the sounds of things, I think I'm not the only one who's confused by this part of your explanation.

Cheers,
Mark
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Sphere wrote:
I've played 175 games; most of those at level 5. I'm not interested so much in what you do once you've achieved that position as I am how you get there in the first place. It's how you reach the crossover point when you have the cards to become aggressive that I question.

I'm not sure I want to get into an extended discussion about strategy, certainly not outside of the strategy folder. What I'd like to see instead is a play by play account of what you're doing through the green deck and into the yellow; I'm pretty sure that would reveal a rules misunderstanding of some sort.

That could happen either via play be forum, where someone could deal cards for you and you could decide what to do with them, or via a Vassal or Cyberboard game where you could upload a file after playing.

Or you could just forget all that and keep playing as you are. In that case, I'd suggest it's time for you to step up to level 5. You do that by playing exactly as in level 4 with the exception that you start with 16 life instead of 18. If that's still too easy, try 15, etc. Doing that will help you find a challenging level quickly.

My thoughts exactly, though I didn't know how to go about testing the proposition. I especially didn't know that Vassal and Cyberboard could run the game, and I'm inexperienced with PBF, so those thoughts didn't occur to me, but I'm almost dead certain that there is a misunderstanding of the rules here. Without a clear play by play and card by card recitation though, I can't quite put my finger on it, but I have a nagging thought that something is wrong. This game is either a very nice challenge to play well and win, or totally broken in a way that nobody has ever found before, broken in a profound way that ruins it forever.

Having said that, and being a gentleman of leisure, I am willing to serve as the "dealer" -- I have the time to look in the forum frequently on most days in order to do my part to speed the game along, I have the actual physical game right here, and I can easily make arrangements to leave the game set up and kept in a current state, with no kids or pets to get playful with the cards.

Sphere is probably our resident expert on the game, and certainly on rules interpretations, so I suggest that he be the "head referee" if I deal, while allowing others to speak up if they catch something, of course. My role would be purely to follow instructions from Disenculture, and those instructions will have to be clear with no interpretation needed or permitted on my part -- no matter what the instructions are, I would follow them to the letter and report what I see, and leave it up to the referee to call the play good or bad.

cool

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mjschryver wrote:
I just did a quick check of the old spreadsheet. I've won 39 games at level 4: lowest score 51; highest score 116; average score 78.

I don't track or score losses, but I know I've won over 200 games, and I'm very sure that I win over half the time.

Point being, I'm not trying to brag, but I think I'm pretty good at this game.

I can't for the life of me figure out what you're doing on the Green level. I've read your explanations, and they make absolutely no sense.

Your infinite loop? Check. Brilliant.

Your overall strategy? Check. At-least-theoretically brilliant.

How you get through the Green level, with your deck set up for your strategy to work? I have no idea.

For that matter, how you get through the Green level, still alive? I have no idea.

Can you maybe explain that part a little more clearly? From the sounds of things, I think I'm not the only one who's confused by this part of your explanation.

Cheers,
Mark

Again, my thoughts too. I think I'm a fair player of this game even though I don't usually speak up too much in this forum because others are clearly better, and I am of the opinion that something is not quite right in this.

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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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Well, how about this?

@OP: I have an Android App for Friday, which implements all the rules correctly. Do you have an Android device with Android 4.1 or higher?
Would you give your strategy with my App a try?

I'm really curious if it works still, but maybe it would help to discover if or if not you are playing the game right, since many here are not believing you...?

Edit: Basically, if you can set up this combo towards the end of the game, your high scores are not that surprising. I've learned about it through you - great find! Very cool!!
So, if you finish without Aging cards, with 20 life, you are already at 130 points. Maybe 5-6 Hazards left, so minus 15-18 points, leaving enough room for the points through the combat cards in your deck.

So, yes, you are doing everything right, I would say! ^^

Edit2: But you are aware, that a destroyed card is turned face down and still occupies it's space, may not be removed or targeted in any way by other cards? Not exchanged or else either?
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Shuyang Ren
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Almecho wrote:
Well, how about this?

@OP: I have an Android App for Friday, which implements all the rules correctly. Do you have an Android device with Android 4.1 or higher?
Would you give your strategy with my App a try?

I'm really curious if it works still, but maybe it would help to discover if or if not you are playing the game right, since many here are not believing you...?

Edit: Basically, if you can set up this combo towards the end of the game, your high scores are not that surprising. I've learned about it through you - great find! Very cool!!
So, if you finish without Aging cards, with 20 life, you are already at 130 points. Maybe 5-6 Hazards left, so minus 15-18 points, leaving enough room for the points through the combat cards in your deck.

So, yes, you are doing everything right, I would say! ^^

Edit2: But you are aware, that a destroyed card is turned face down and still occupies it's space, may not be removed or targeted in any way by other cards? Not exchanged or else either?


Unfortunately the only device I got is an old Iphone 4.

And yes, I read the rules people where highlighting in this thread and took note of them. I refereed to the rule book a couple of times too and I am pretty confident I didn't break or misread the rules.
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
Germany
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Bavaria
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Well, as I said: if you can set up the loop, then the life points will get you the points you need. And maybe you were just lucky with your hazards. As soon as you got two times "Cannibals" to choose from and you draw 5x "-1" you lose 10 lifepoints, which is basically the killer of your game... ^^
But I will try to set up your combo, too. Great find, as I already said!

btw: "Stop" is no problem with this, since it only stops you from drawing free cards on the left side, and only if drawn on the left side, too. So no problem at most of the times...
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Shuyang Ren
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Since people also asked how I cruised through my green phase:

I guess it's slightly luck dependent. Since 2x cannibals will really screw you but I think that's just a general threat of the game itself. Mostly I just pick the easiest hazard of either of the two. Early game 0 difficulty tasks are a blessing because you have a solid chance of completing them, but also a lot of them are utility like exchange, draw, and food. Which are the key pieces of the puzzle. I think I can get it off fairly consistent. By the time you have went through your deck twice, it should be filled with 0 point fight cards that gives you a lot of draw control. By the time I hit yellow I was able to chain a lot of cards (since I kind of have to since most of them are just zero fight value draw manipulation cards).

Remember, if you get fucked by an aging card just spend life point until you hit a card (like destroy, exchange, bottom of the stack, etc). that fix it for you. Most of the time you pay less life to save yourself from losing more life and a potential chance to permanently remove aging cards.
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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I'd say you got very lucky with your draws. Normally you can get already f***ed up in the green phase, when you fight a "0" difficutly card, and you draw a "-1".
What to do? Try to draw on, for life points, in hope of "1" or "2"? But maybe you will get 4 "0"s. So you have to pay 1 life point for the lost fight, can destroy the "-1", and additionally you have paid 4 life points for nothing.
Of course, if the "1" comes up - you had good luck!

This is even more so, if you start, and encounter very early on a difficulty 3 or 4 card (which was already the easier choice) and you immediately draw the "-3" Aging card, because it was mixed in! And the other 2 or 3 cards are "-1"s oder "0"s...
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