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Subject: Bel-Neth unit retreat rss

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Robert Crawford
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I want to look up in the rules if the Bel-Neth unit can retreat into Paris (it is allied with AFA). Where can I find the answer?
 
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Wendell
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6.6 (p 30, 2nd full para not counting examples) notes defending land units must retreat to friendly land area where they can stack. Since Bel-Neth is an ally of AFA, it appears to me per 1.3 that it could stack in Paris so it could retreat there.
 
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Robert Crawford
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The problem is that "where they can stack" refers to p.15, 1.3: The Map and Stacking, which is not clear [is a mess].

1.3, The Map and Stacking, Paragraph 2 reads:

Units from any major power may stack together in the same sea area. However, only units from one side ["side" is not defined in the rules, though I assume there are two sides, Axis and Allies] may stack together in a land area (except during an attack, see 5.3) [this exception makes no sense since attacking units are declared at the beginning of the Land Area Combat step and are, by the preceding sentence, prohibited from stacking in the same land area to begin with]. You may always stack in a land area controlled by your major power (exceptions: neutral major powers, and China, see 5.2) [What!?]. However [two "howevers" in a row], your units can't stack in a land area controlled by another major power on your side if that land area is in a major power's home country (see list in 1.1; exception: once the USA is at war with an Axis major power, AFA and USA units may freely stack in each other's major power home countries too).

OK, So is the Bel-Neth a unit of the AFA major power after a German DOW? Hmmm. We now need to look in Section 3. Politics, ...maybe. 3.2, Declare War, paragraph 3, states that "When you declare war on a neutral minor country [that would be Bel-Neth] a major power on the other side allies with it: usually AFA for the Allies and Germany for the Axis."

Great. Bel_Neth allies with the AFA. But what does being an "Ally" mean?

3.3: Ally with a Neutral Minor Country, starts out with a paragraph about certain countries that have pre-requisites for allying with a Major Power, but Bel_Neth is not one of them. The second paragraph, which I assume relates to all Minor Country allies, not just those in the following list, says "When a minor country becomes your ally you must set-up its units as noted on the Minor Country Weapons Development Chart...These units may be used by their controlling Major power at once." Arghhh. This still does not tell me if I can retreat the Bel-Neth unit into the home country area of its controlling major power. (Other WWII games allow it, some don't, so it's not obvious what should happen.)

It would be very helpful if there was a statement to the effect that "Minor Country Allied units are considered units of the controlling major power for all purposes." Heck, that may be in the rules but I can't find it
 
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Jim F
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Just to throw something else in to the mix, would Bel-Neth unit survive the loss of it's country?
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Dave LeLacheur
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wifwendell wrote:
6.6 (p 30, 2nd full para not counting examples) notes defending land units must retreat to friendly land area where they can stack. Since Bel-Neth is an ally of AFA, it appears to me per 1.3 that it could stack in Paris so it could retreat there.


Robert, Wendell has provided the correct response. Cheers, Dave L.
 
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Dave LeLacheur
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Ashiefan wrote:

Just to throw something else in to the mix, would Bel-Neth unit survive the loss of it's country?


Hi Jim,

It is possible that the Germans could force the Be-Neth army to retreat without destroying it (an "L" result on the combat chart would have this effect). This would force the Be-Neth army to fall back to Paris, assuming Paris is still AFA-controlled.

Cheers,
Dave L.
 
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Dave LeLacheur
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Hi Robert,

I'll try to clarify your questions.

rcrawford wrote:
The problem is that "where they can stack" refers to p.15, 1.3: The Map and Stacking, which is not clear [is a mess].

1.3, The Map and Stacking, Paragraph 2 reads:

Units from any major power may stack together in the same sea area. However, only units from one side ["side" is not defined in the rules, though I assume there are two sides, Axis and Allies] may stack together in a land area (except during an attack, see 5.3) [this exception makes no sense since attacking units are declared at the beginning of the Land Area Combat step and are, by the preceding sentence, prohibited from stacking in the same land area to begin with]. You may always stack in a land area controlled by your major power (exceptions: neutral major powers, and China, see 5.2) [What!?].


Under 5.2 you'll see that there are special rules about non-Chinese Allied land units entering land areas in China. And also that neutral major powers can only move GAR units outside of their home country.

rcrawford wrote:
However [two "howevers" in a row], your units can't stack in a land area controlled by another major power on your side if that land area is in a major power's home country (see list in 1.1; exception: once the USA is at war with an Axis major power, AFA and USA units may freely stack in each other's major power home countries too).

OK, So is the Bel-Neth a unit of the AFA major power after a German DOW? Hmmm. We now need to look in Section 3. Politics, ...maybe. 3.2, Declare War, paragraph 3, states that "When you declare war on a neutral minor country [that would be Bel-Neth] a major power on the other side allies with it: usually AFA for the Allies and Germany for the Axis."

Great. Bel_Neth allies with the AFA. But what does being an "Ally" mean?


I think 3.3 gives you direction, and you did go there, well done.

rcrawford wrote:
3.3: Ally with a Neutral Minor Country, starts out with a paragraph about certain countries that have pre-requisites for allying with a Major Power, but Bel_Neth is not one of them. The second paragraph, which I assume relates to all Minor Country allies, not just those in the following list, says "When a minor country becomes your ally you must set-up its units as noted on the Minor Country Weapons Development Chart...These units may be used by their controlling Major power at once." Arghhh. This still does not tell me if I can retreat the Bel-Neth unit into the home country area of its controlling major power. (Other WWII games allow it, some don't, so it's not obvious what should happen.)


I'm sorry about your frustration. Wendell aptly summarized the relevant rules, which are a lot less complicated than perhaps you were expecting.

rcrawford wrote:
It would be very helpful if there was a statement to the effect that "Minor Country Allied units are considered units of the controlling major power for all purposes." Heck, that may be in the rules but I can't find it


I'm sorry that wasn't clear. I thought that was implicit in the definition of "ally". However, to be explicit, your assumption is correct: once a major power allies with a minor country, that major power governs the use of that minor country's units going forward. (This can change due to conquest & liberation, potentially.)

I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Dave L.
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Wendell
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Ashiefan wrote:

Just to throw something else in to the mix, would Bel-Neth unit survive the loss of it's country?


Good question. 3.4 answers it:

Blitz! rules wrote:
When one of your countries is conquered, do the following.
• Immediately select another of your allied home countries
(including minor allies) to become the new home country
for the conquered country’s units that remain on the map (if
any).


So, yes. With a new home country of wherever they decide.
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Robert Crawford
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As for Bel-Neth unit supply...

p.17, 1.7: Supply Lines states:

A supply line starts in a land area either in one of your major power home countries (see 1.1) or (when tracing a supply line for a specific unit) from that unit's home country (if different), and ends in the area where supply is needed.

Am I the only one who finds this language confusing and not relating to neutral/allied units?

How about this for a more straightforward rule:

All units draw supply from their home country (the area labeled in italics on their counter--see diagram in 1.2). AFA and German units may also draw supply from any of the home countries listed in 1.1 as making up Germany and AFA. When a neutral minor country allies with a major power, that minor country's unit(s) can also draw supply from that major power's home country's area/areas.


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