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Subject: Gold, Sword, Utah, Omaha. That's it. rss

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Mark Bigney
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According to FFG's movie about Tide of Iron, the Normandy landings occurred during the "mid to late" war. I bet the non-Americans amongst the Allies (you know, the minor powers) would find that declaration interesting.
It's also interesting to hear from the rulebook that there were two nations who landed on Normandy, the Brits and the Americans. I guess that fifth beach was a myth.
I wouldn't expect any game to include every nation that took part in a war; but the tone of some of ToI's narratives has struck me as a bit odd.
 
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Joseph Crockett
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Not to play devils advocate here, but defining the Normandy Landings as having occurred "mid to late war" sounds about right. The beginning of the European War is generally agreed to have been the invasion of poland, 1939, and it continued until the Nazi surrender, 1945. June 1944 is closer to "late" than middle, admittedly, but mid-to-late seems like a reasonable description.

In fact, in both theaters, 1944 is just on the late side of middle for World War II. You could make an argument for the Pacific theater, due to the Manchurian invasion early 1930s, but probably not for Europe.



On the subject of the fifth beach...

Yeah, you're right, that's pretty wrong.
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Mark Bigney
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I agree that it's a matter of quibbling over semantics, but if something starts in '39 and ends in '45, '44 (much less June of '44), "mid to late" doesn't strike me as terribly accurate. It's highly subjective, though--I'll freely grant that.
Fortunately, everyone knows WWII started in '42.
 
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Eric Brosius
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In November, 1942, Winston Churchill gave a speech in which he said "This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Based on your logic, he also had no idea what he was talking about.

I'd say the early, mid and late war stages are defined not in terms of months, but in terms of story line. The early war is the period during which the Axis powers were advancing everywhere and people wondered whether it would be possible to stop them. The mid war is the period during which the two sides seemed roughly equal and it was hard to know who would win. The late war is the period during which it began to appear obvious that the Allies would win eventually.

Given this approach, it's accurate to call the Normandy invasions the mid- to late-war period.
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Adam B
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What about the Free French and the Poles? They hit the beaches just as hard as the Brits Americans and Canadians.
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Mark Bigney
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Sorry, Adam. Just British and Americans at Normandy.
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Richard D
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jl4130 wrote:
Hrm, no disgruntled Canadians here... If it were an American beach that got left out, you can bet that WW3 would start the next day, with us vs. FFG. Guess we're just not as civil as our northern neighbors. As for hte declaration of late war, that sounds about right. By the time Normandy happened, German defeat was not a matter of if but of when. Every day, the East crumpled a little bit more, and the Russian steamroller was not going to let a brutalized Army Group Center stop it. Sometimes, I even wonder if the invasion was necessary at all. Probably it was, and at the very least, I'd rather we all be speaking English instead of Russian. English is an ugly-sounding language, but it's not as bad as Russian.


That's (NOT) o.k., but we'll have our revenge - we'll just beat you at hockey, again!

However, I think that my uncle, who was shot twice by the Germans, and still has some shrapnel lodged in his skull would have something to say about such an "oversight." In fact it was the Canadians who were the most sucessful in fulfilling their objectives on that fateful day in 1944! Oh well, just seems typical . . .
 
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Court
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EDIT BY OP: REMOVED FOR INNACURATE INFO! (I had misremembered info regarding the assault at Juno.



Still, I am very surprised that no mention or reference to the REST of the action going on along the invasion coast... I am heartened, though, by the fact that so many of us remember those sacrafices still, nevermind what a rulebook/video for a game on the subject says!
 
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Caleb Edwards
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I can only quote wikipedia, but according to it at least, "After Omaha Beach, Juno was the second most heavily defended of the five landing sites chosen." and Canadian troops suffered about 50% casualties in the first hour.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_beach
(Full disclosure, I'm a Canadian living in the States).
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Court
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Teddet wrote:
I can only quote wikipedia, but according to it at least, "After Omaha Beach, Juno was the second most heavily defended of the five landing sites chosen." and Canadian troops suffered about 50% casualties in the first hour.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_beach
(Full disclosure, I'm a Canadian living in the States).


Well color my stripes red - for embarassment. I thought I had recalled our guide telling us that it was less defended than the other beaches. But I OBVIOUSLY misremembered! My apologies! Although I am intrigued by WWII, I haven't done any significant amount of reading/research on anything more than the overall events.
 
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Nelson Moutinho
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MrSkeletor wrote:
Canada is a real place? I thought it was a made up land in South Park.


It's true! And just last year we finally got running water up here. Granted, it's coming from our melting igloos - which does make it a tad harder to hide from all those polar bears running rampant.
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Shawn Riordan
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Oh no... the Grognards are here.
 
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Kevin Reynolds
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I don't know why, but many historians consider Canadians as part of the British forces. Maybe because it is (or was, I dont keep track of it) a commonwealth state?

I do think if you look around at games however, Juno is rarely included. Maybe this is for lack of global publicity? Hell, if I remember right, even ASL only had Canadians in Operation Veritable, and the original Squad Leader only portrayed them in the "Rogue Scenarios" which were direct mail only. If ASL doesn't place them, who would? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Canadian's made no difference or sacrificed nothing.

I wouldn't take offense at this yet. Let's see what they do next. It might not hurt to send them a note and ask them about it.
 
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Jorge Montero
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jl4130 wrote:
Hrm, no disgruntled Canadians here... If it were an American beach that got left out, you can bet that WW3 would start the next day, with us vs. FFG. Guess we're just not as civil as our northern neighbors. As for hte declaration of late war, that sounds about right. By the time Normandy happened, German defeat was not a matter of if but of when. Every day, the East crumpled a little bit more, and the Russian steamroller was not going to let a brutalized Army Group Center stop it. Sometimes, I even wonder if the invasion was necessary at all. Probably it was, and at the very least, I'd rather we all be speaking English instead of Russian. English is an ugly-sounding language, but it's not as bad as Russian.


Chances are that yes, if the only change you make to history is to remove the Normandy and Anzio invasions, the Russians still steamroll the Germans all the way to Berlin and beyond. Would all of Europe speak Russian? Probably not. The US still had the bomb, and it's quite likely that Democratic Governments or allied troops would pop up in the Netherlands, Belgium, and France before Russian troops even get there. With a situation like that, the most likely scenario is a unified, soviet Germany. There's also all the German scientist that would have ended up in Russia instead of in the US, but I bet things wouldn't be as drastic a Soviet Europe.

And as far as the game being historical, I think that asking for accurate info in the manual is not unreasonable. Machine guns destroying Tiger tanks for the sake of gameplay seems OK. Historical notes that are downright wrong just show lack of care.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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Certainly the Canadians contributed significantly in terms of an entire army, and not to mention having the 3rd largest navy.

The Canadian army was very much British at the time, if you take my meaning. It is reasonable for a game like TOI to fold the Canadians in with the British. But, who knows; perhaps the British expansion will include reddish figures that represent Canadian forces.
 
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David Spangler
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isaacc wrote:
But, who knows; perhaps the British expansion will include reddish figures that represent Canadian forces.


Unless they got sent back for "color correction"....
 
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John Maddening
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DSpangler wrote:
isaacc wrote:
But, who knows; perhaps the British expansion will include reddish figures that represent Canadian forces.


Unless they got sent back for "color correction"....


We couldn't decide whether we wanted to color them like maple syrup or "Tim Horton's" boxes.
 
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Wes Nott
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The Canadians are featured in Axis and Allies: Miniatures (AAM) and they are one of the better minor nations in the game.

The comment of D-Day being mid war would be correct if one looks the conflict only from the American perspective. I think generally speaking Americans who aren't interested in the time period prefer to play WW2 games as the Americans because they can identify with them. I never hear of Americans not interested in the period who want to play as the Russians. That is just me speculating though.

It'd be a shame if the canadians were left out of any future D-Day expansions/scenario as they featured a prominent part in the fighting.

I am most interested in seeing an expansion for TOI involving the Eastern Front, but i'd like to see the other Allied Nations such as Britain, and particularly the Poles at some point. Heck, just do an entire commonwealth expansion and throw everyone in there associated with the Brits (Canadians and Poles included).

Now that I think of it the Poles are in AAM too and have some pretty darned good pieces too.
 
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