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Subject: Tyranny question rss

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Jon Pessano
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All,

If someone has to resolve tyranny, I have a question.

It states that 15 units has to be selected by the beneficiary and be adjacent as much as possible and in each of those areas all of your units must be selected.

What does "all of your units must be selected" mean? Does that mean an area where you have over 15 units you will lose more than 15 to the beneficiary?

If so, what if all your units are adjacent?

OR is all this wording there to mean you cannot split up 15 units between two different non adjacent areas? And what does adjacent really mean if you have astronomy?

Thx
jonpfl
 
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Jon Pessano
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All,

After reading and thinking about it, I think I am confusing what "area" means. I was thinking "area" meant a collection of territories but I am assuming it means ONE territory and thus the beneficiary isn't sharing a territory/area with victim.

If above is true, can beneficiary select territories to his/her advantage (i.e. it is possible to select exactly 15 but beneficiary opts to select X territories which is > 15).

Thx
jonpfl
 
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Bill K
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A discussion that may help you is that related to questions 14 and 15 in this thread: 18 questions.

An area is one territory on the map, having its own unique name.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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What does "damage" mean? I couldn't find it in the book. Is 1 damage = taking 1 token off the game board?

Also: Politics

When you give a player treasury tokens equal to the number of units you annex, do those treasury tokens (which I understand are flipped-over units from your supply) physically move to your opponent's board, thus permanently reducing your supply and permanently increasing theirs?
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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jonpfl wrote:
It states that 15 units has to be selected by the beneficiary and be adjacent as much as possible and in each of those areas all of your units must be selected.

What does "all of your units must be selected" mean? Does that mean an area where you have over 15 units you will lose more than 15 to the beneficiary?

If so, what if all your units are adjacent?

OR is all this wording there to mean you cannot split up 15 units between two different non adjacent areas? And what does adjacent really mean if you have astronomy?

All of the units in an area must be selected, or none are selected. You can choose an area with 5 people in it, but only annex 2 of the units.

The way it works, the beneficiary must choose adjacent areas that include exactly 15 units if possible. If this is not possible, then the beneficiary may choose adjacent areas that go over 15 units.

To simplify things, we let the beneficiary choose the areas to be annexed one at a time until he has reached or passed the 15 unit limit.

jonpfl wrote:
After reading and thinking about it, I think I am confusing what "area" means. I was thinking "area" meant a collection of territories but I am assuming it means ONE territory and thus the beneficiary isn't sharing a territory/area with victim.

An area is one space on the board, with a name and a population limit. You can call it a territory if you like, but in the rules it's called an area.

jonpfl wrote:
If above is true, can beneficiary select territories to his/her advantage (i.e. it is possible to select exactly 15 but beneficiary opts to select X territories which is > 15).

In Civ, there's no mechanic of area control; areas are just places where your people live and build cities. There is no purpose to selecting an area to annex that has no units in it.

jayahre wrote:
What does "damage" mean? I couldn't find it in the book. Is 1 damage = taking 1 token off the game board?

Damage is losing a unit (tokens or cities) from the board. If you reduce a city (worth 5 units) and replace it with 2 tokens, then you have taken 3 damage.

jayahre wrote:
Also: Politics

When you give a player treasury tokens equal to the number of units you annex, do those treasury tokens (which I understand are flipped-over units from your supply) physically move to your opponent's board, thus permanently reducing your supply and permanently increasing theirs?

Every player has exactly 55 tokens at all times. Your tokens are never placed on an opponent's supply or treasury.

When paying to annex units with politics, you move X tokens from treasury to stock, and your opponent moves X tokens from stock to treasury.
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Jon Pessano
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Just to be clear, is a person forced to pick 5 areas (worth 15) while they could pick 5 other areas which is worth 17?

Is a beneficiary obligated to try to hit exactly 15 or can they find a situation where it is 16 or 17 (or more, let say for this example, 2 cities and 3 areas of 2 units for a total of 16).

Thx
jonpfl
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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From the rulebook, p34, "Insufficient units, cities or treasury":

"On those occasions where a player can only comply if he exceeds the amount required, he must do so."

I read this to mean that if there is a solution that provides the exact number, then the player must use that solution. If there is no solution, then a player may choose an option that exceeds the number.
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Flo de Haan
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Let's clarify some things from our side. (Most is written here in this thread already. Thanks guys!)

First let's deal with definitions. These are written in the manual, but it's no problem to sum these up here again if this makes things clearer.

Definitions
- Area: one 'territory' (as you like) that has a name, and a population limit. A coastal area also has a water-part. Inland lakes/seas are not considered water-parts here. (For example 'Nis' on panel 3)
- adjacent: sharing a border
- adjacent by land: sharing a land border
- adjacent by water: sharing a water border
- adjacent (undefined 'by water' or 'by land'): sharing a border
- adjacent over open sea: NO
- units: cities and/or tokens. A token is worth 1 unit point. A city is worth 5 unit points.
- X damage: you MUST remove units worth X unit points. You are allowed to remove a city for 5, and place tokens back, but the newly added tokens are subtracted from the '5 points' counted for this city.

Civil War / Tyranny
The beneficiary annexes units belonging to the victim. First the number of units to be annexed is defined. In the case of Civil War, the victim may choose which areas are annexed. In the case of Tyranny, the beneficiary may choose the areas. The victim itself can not be selected as beneficiary.

Civil War:
The victim selects X unit points in areas adjacent to each other. He may choose cities and or tokens, whatever he likes, but he must choose all of his units in each area at once. Only if there is no option to choose exactly X units, he must choose areas that exceed X units. He may not choose areas that are not adjacent to avoid this exception. He may also not choose less than all of his units in a single area to meet exactly X units this way. There might be a situation that there is only one option the victim can exactly select X damage this way, but he doesn't like the division. In that case... There is no choice. He must choose that option.

The beneficiary annexes the selected units. If he has insufficient tokens or cities, he annexes whatever he wants by his choice. The remainder of selected units are replaced by barbarians or pirates (of the same type).

Tyranny:
The same applies here, but this time the beneficiary may choose the areas. Most of the time he will find an option that fits his situation best. Also, since the beneficiary is the player having the most cities in stock, tokens as tiebreaker, it will be very likely he will have sufficient units.

In those rare occasions that he cannot find any one way that he can exactly select X units this way, regardless of the number of units he has in stock, and regardless of the exact division of tokens/cities he has in stock, he may select areas that exceed X unit points. The victim will definitely step in here to see if there really isn't a way to comply exactly X units. If so, the beneficiary must choose that option. He may not select areas that are not adjacent to avoid this exception. He may not like the division, or may not be able to replace all selected units this way, but he has no choice. In this second case, the remainder of selected units are replaced by barbarians or pirates (of the same type).

Politics:
The user of the special ability moves the treasury tokens to his own stock. The treasury of the victim is unaffected. This was an editing error.
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Bill K
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Another Calamity question:

With Famine, can the "5 damage assigned to 3 players of your choice" be assigned to the Beneficiary? (E.g., to the player with the lowest current City count)
 
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Flo de Haan
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Smash62bill wrote:
Another Calamity question:

With Famine, can the "5 damage assigned to 3 players of your choice" be assigned to the Beneficiary? (E.g., to the player with the lowest current City count)


There is no beneficiary in Famine.
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Bill K
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Flodehaan wrote:
Smash62bill wrote:
With Famine, can the "5 damage assigned to 3 players of your choice" be assigned to the Beneficiary? (E.g., to the player with the lowest current City count)
There is no beneficiary in Famine.
Thank you for the answer.

I asked because Epidemic doesn't really have a Beneficiary either, same as with Iconoclasm & Heresy. Or at least they don't require a Beneficiary to either receive anything or decide anything (same as with Famine)--but the rules say in both of those cases (that is, with Epidemic and Iconoclasm & Heresy) that the Beneficiary may not be selected as a secondary victim.

Since the Famine rules were silent with regard to its having or not having a Beneficiary, I was wondering if that was intentional or not.

Thanks again.
 
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Flo de Haan
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Well, the last trader of both Epidemic and Iconoclasm & Heresy cannot be selected as secondary victim. That is quite a benefit isn't it.

Since Famine is non tradeable, this benefit isn't there either.
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