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Subject: RtL Duhtch (OL) VS CePeU - For a handfull of ... newbies rss

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Armando Hernandez
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Hi,

after gettting a bit used to the handling of playing Descent by forum and having advanced a bit with my first game with Tibarius I would like to play a second game as heroes agains a second overlord to see if I can use anything I have "learned" so far. I would also like to broaden the experience how a different overlord might play.

Overall I would like to have a second game as a benchmark and a way to see if anything I learn in one of those two games can be applied to the second and will hold true there

As I allready said RL keeps me busy but the next two months will probably be sedated so there could be a good head start with 1 possibly 2 moves a day probably 1-3 on weekends while during weekdays it will be more like one (less moves are fine with me too).

I would be happy if some evil overlord could be found who can teach me the evil side of ... well of what overlords tend to teach and do

CePeU
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Reinhard Horst
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Re: Looking for a second game
Hello Heros!

I still think it's more fun (and more demanding) to split the hero side between two or more players.

CePeU's game speed is rather demanding, so i am unsure if i should throw my hat into the ring, but oh well, if there is interest i am offering to join the hero side as 2nd hero player.
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
I would play a game with you CePeU. We would play by the rules with agreed upon house rules. I can play either side. You have a good basic understanding of the game and I'm pretty impressed. The one thing I would caution you about the game, would be to get more familiar with how LT battles go and the overland map. It is the most important part of the game.

 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
Hi duhtch I would be glad if you take me up on a game. As I wrote I would like to play the heroes to have a comparison and get more practice there especially also with the overland map and LT encounters. I think watching someone else play the heroes would give also give a good idea of the overland map play but then again as I have no experience as overlord it might not be a good idea either. In addition I would also need to catch up on playing the overlord ..

So playing heroes would be prefered from my side but I would also be interested in any comment, improvement or discussion coming from such a game.

Concerning rules I am fine with any arrangement. If something comes up I think there is no problem to find a solution and in the end as you are the more experienced player we can stick to whatever you decide - after all consistency of rules is the important part about rules .

Also I do not mind to ask if I am not clear about something.

For starters if you could do the overview posts (heroes stats, eq, OL threat etc) I would also be quite happy about - somehow I did not yet figure out how to do that (at least in a readable format). A pitty the forum does not take html code. I still need to figure out if it takes tabulators.

Anyway if you open up a new game (what about Dhutch VS CePeU, "For a handfull of neewbies" ?) I would gladly join. For the next two weeks I might also have a bit more of time on my hands which would be a nice bonus for me . I am not sure who rolls for heroes but when you open up the game you might go ahead and do so .

This will be good christmas fun

 
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Reinhard Horst
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Re: Looking for a second game
Bah ... got time for a 2nd Descent game, but not to develop a game prototype with me *sob, mutter* ... , well actually i can understand you - developing a game with me must be pure horror *gggg*.
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
We can start with the same house rules that Immortal and I are doing without the expedited rules.

3) Final battle is per standard RtL but the OL may use threat as per encounters.
4) The following props from SoB count as obstacles, and this should be a standardized House rule/interpretation. Everything else (Barrel, Statue, Pipe Organ, Reef, Sandbar, Water (both), Weapon mount (both) and Whirlpool).
5) Encounters and dungeon levels do not get shuffled unless expunged. Locations do get shuffled.Playing SoB and RtL Dungeons as well as applicable SoB rumors.
6) Feat cards will be used but all those which require conditional orders will be removed. Double pack of feats.
7) Skills-
7.1 Holy Aura: works at the beginning of the OL's turn as well as normal timing.
7.2 Shadow Soul: happens before anything else in a hero's turn and the hero counts his start of turn location at whichever location he chose (ignore the FAQ ruling on pg24 that hero can't use a glyph)
8) Extra option at Secret Master Training +2W +1F
9) Rapid Fire is limited to once per attack
10) Radius (Command, Kirga's special, etc...) abilities work the "not-stupid" way (i.e. no template, just count spaces).
11) Boosted weak heroes as per the other thread (see below)

Quote:
Arvel - Keeps 2 skills, not one (buying extra skills will cost her more)
Aurim - Special -> Alchemist
Challara - 2CT
Eliam - +1 melee dice (2/0/2 traits), +1 Combat skill draw (2Com/2Ma/1choice)
Ispher - 2CT
Lindell - 4CT
Lyssa - 2 trait dice each in magic and melee (2/0/2 traits)
Red Scorpion - 2 trait dice everywhere (2/2/2 traits), special can be used two times per turn
Sahla - change ranged dice to magic (0/0/3 traits)
Shiver - 2CT, Willpower
Sir Valadir - +1 magic dice (2/0/2 traits, move Subterfuge skill to combat (2/0/1 skills)
Spiritspeaker Mok - melee dice to magic (0/0/3 traits)
Tetherys - magic dice to range (0/3/0 traits), 1 Subterfuge skill to magic (0/2/1 skills)


If you have some other ones that you would prefer to discuss, we can.

I will go ahead and roll for heroes for you as I have a bit of experience with it. Would you like to use promo heroes?

If so, here is your draw:

first 12 unique 25d48 = (22 + 18 + 22 + 3 + 27 + 41 + 30 + 37 + 19 + 32 + 33 + 24 + 45 + 30 + 30 + 17 + 23 + 13 + 42 + 3 + 32 + 40 + 8 + 26 + 8) = 625
 
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  • 832157. duhtch
  • 25d48 =
  • (22 + 18 + 22 + 3 + 27 + 41 + 30 + 37 + 19 + 32 + 33 + 24 + 45 + 30 + 30 + 17 + 23 + 13 + 42 + 3 + 32 + 40 + 8 + 26 + 8) =
  • 625
  • first 12 unique
  • Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:05 pm
duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
22 Lord Hawthorne
18 Landrec the Wise
3 Aurim**

27 Nara the Fang
41 Tatianna
30 Red Scorpion**

37 Sir Valadir**
19 Laughin Buldar
32 Runemaster Thorn

24 Mad Carthos
45 Truthseer Kel
17 Krutzbeck

This is a great draw and one that I would be salivating over. There are quite a few things to consider when picking a group, but the importance is balance and damage. You need to be able to kill copper monsters in 1 shot usually. Consistantly being able to do 6-8 damage is great and you have some the BEST damage dealers in this game. Landrec, Nara, Laughin, Carthos all do big damage. Keep in mind that a lot of these characters have been boosted per the house rules.

Next you need to figure out who is your least amount of picked. You only have 1 ranged character, Tatianna (who is awesome imo). Red Scorpion can be specialized that way too, but I would usually pick Tatianna in this case, as you don't want to have a character like Red Scorpion unless you are forced to (even though her ability can be good in the long run some some select skills).

You have a plethora of magic users, so lets focus on melee. Hawthorne, Nara, Laughin, Krutzbeck. Hawthorne is good, with 16W 4F 1A 4S he hits well with 3 melee dice and has Reach. Nara is good with less wounds, but better armor and she hits like a truck vs large monsters. Laughin is a bit better all around with damage. Being able to hit with an Axe and Morningstar is very impressive. He starts with less fatigue, but he is probably in my top 3 of melee characters. Krutzbeck I have never played, but I tend to shy away from 8W melee characters as they are easy to kill with traps. Also his ability isn't that great as it requires him to be looming at low life.

All the magic users are great, so take your pick from there. The utility heroes are Valadir, who is good and you can start him out with melee, but as he gets better he can go the magic route. Red Scorpion is also a good utility. Aurim is great too, but won't be good at attacking.

So up to you to make your choices, but these are some of the things I am thinking about. If you want to make a few selections, I can go over pros and cons with you and then you can make your final decision and roll for skills.
 
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Reinhard Horst
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Re: Looking for a second game
Are comments and opinions welcomed?
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
Here is a good place to look at heroes if you haven't already seen it.

http://www.descentinthedark.com/_h_/heroes.php

With that, I'm not going to tell you how to play, but I will give out pointers from time to time and will give you an honest answer. If you feel it is too much you can ask me to stop and I will respect your wishes. Here are some groups that I would pick:

A) Hawthorne, Tatianna, Thorn, Kel
B) Hawthorne, Tatianna, Valadir, Carthos
C) Landrec, Tatianna, Laughin Buldar, Kel/Carthos
D) Aurim, Tatianna, Laughin Buldar, Kel/Carthos
E) Landrec, Red Scorpion, Laughin Buldar, Carthos/Kel

Every one of these are strong. Ones are better than others, but each are a bit different.

Landrec is one of my favorite because he starts with 2 free surges and can start with Sunburst, a Blast weapon that makes the OL play different. He also starts with 5f, so I am constantly battling or aiming and moving him into place with fatigue and a vitality potion.

Tatianna is strong because she had high fatigue and speed, so she can do good damage with 3 dice and or act as your runner. Her ability is pretty neat in dungeons too.

Laughin hits like a truck. He has lower armor though, so that is his drawback.

Carthos is the definition of a glass cannon. Low health, but his hard with his +2d.

Kel is great more on the overland map when the OL with be hiding stuff in trees. Her ability doesn't work too well in dungeons. Note the FAQ posting for her.
Quote:

Truthseer Kel's hero ability should read: "Obstacles and other figures do not block Truthseer Kel’s line of sight. This does not affect monster spawning."


The others aren't my favorite choices, but still good too great.
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
Tibarius wrote:
Are comments and opinions welcomed?


I don't mind at all, just know that I will correct you if you are wrong, so others don't get confused with incorrect rulings.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
Thanks for your great input. Yes the characters mostly are all great - the problem for the poor hero player of course is that they tend to come in 3 card stacks .

So here come my thoughts and you are welcome to voice your criticism or ideas

I would have wished for one or two more utility or ranged characters. Also as weapon selection is quite random the ability to use what you get is quite important I think. Speed is also allways a factor I think.

So let's start from the least drawn kind - ranged. I would have loved to test Nara but I think she needs a complement like Valadir or another character with a melee trait or high staying power/health. This leaves Tatianna and Red Scorpion. Both of them have nearly identical stats but I also think Tatianna ist the better character. She is faster, she is able to bug out at the last second and she has one ranged dice more. Overall she is a good basis for a runner I think. Still there is a combination where Red Scorpion could make sense.

Next maybe let's discuss why some characters drop out.

Stack 1: Aurim
I think he has potential as a runner. Getting a glyph activated he will boost the group nicely with potions. Then again low health and no subterfuge skills and thus no subterfuge feats which in my oppinion are boosts for runners. Compared to the other two characters in his stack also sub par - so this is a drop.

Stack 2: Runemaster Thorn
Probably also an idea for a runner. Then again moving with his specialty costs him all his 5 movement points. Levels are small in RTL and anything I can see I should be able to reach by foot (running = 10 spaces or 5 by advancing). If he had movement 3 and armor 2 his special would shine or if he could at least use it twice during his turn. Also as I have more than enough/maybe too many sorcerers to choose from I would drop him from that stack.

Stack 3: Nara
See reasons above

Stack 4: Krutzbeck
Actually I think he is not that bad - but not in RTL. The chances to encounter trap cards are bigger I think, then again he is cheap and every 8 wound character can be trapped to death. Having wounds at 4 will raise his armor to 4, in addition with a chainmail he will be at 6 allready and a shield ... At copper level a lot of attacks will not even touch him anymore. But that is the problem I think - later on he will just not scale up and is abilty does not scale (like if he had 50% health his ability would kick in). This will lead to the fact that his ability will get weaker and weaker.

Ok let's see what is left then:

22 Lord Hawthorne
18 Landrec the Wise

41 Tatianna
(30 Red Scorpion**)

37 Sir Valadir**
19 Laughin Buldar

24 Mad Carthos
45 Truthseer Kel

Now comparison by stacks/attack type. Never played Laughing Buldar but imagining him with Mace of Aver/Axe and a nice shield/mace allready gives a good idea. On the other hand he probably will tend to scale down a bit while Valadir will scale up over a campaign.

Mad Carthos is nice but I do not know if he really is so much better than Kel. He is cheaper CT wise but he probably also dies a tad more often due to his low health. Landrec also seems better as he can use his ability to also raise range or with the right weapon damage to 3 or a special effect while also having more HP. As I only have mages in that stack I probably would see Kel as the winner.

Well now comes the real problem what combination of those two stacks:

22 Lord Hawthorne
18 Landrec the Wise

37 Sir Valadir**
19 Laughin Buldar

Landrec (but he is REALLY slow) and Buldar make a really nice and heavy hitting combination in melee and magic - so one option.

Lord Hawthorne and Sir Valadir are the other option. Valadir should be able to do really nice peak damage later on or in mid game. He also has a broader choice so I am able to use magic and melee weapons on two characters. Which gives me more options in using treasure and weapons. Lord Hawthorne while possibly loosing movement with a higher armor could compensate for this with his reach ability. So maybe he and Buldar are comparable but Buldar can peak higher in armor and damage.

A third combination could be Landrec, Valadir (Buldar) and Red Scorpion (Tatianna?) but I am not sure if this is not a bit too magic sided with Kel as fourth.

Well at this point I am lacking a bit of experience and would like to hear some input.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
Hmm posted my analysis before seeing any other posts (after drawing post). Any comments welcome - will think about duhtch combinations for a while.
 
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Reinhard Horst
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Re: Looking for a second game
I wanted to point out that the Hero with Nr. 33 is not on Duhtch list. SO i think Pile 4 contains another set of heros.
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
Tibarius wrote:
I wanted to point out that the Hero with Nr. 33 is not on Duhtch list. SO i think Pile 4 contains another set of heros.


Ahh thanks for that. 33 is Runewitch Astarra, so pile 4 would be Astarra, Carthos and Kel, not Krutzbeck.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
True - *LOL* not sure if that makes my choices easier
 
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Reinhard Horst
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Re: Looking for a second game
I think pile 4 consists of Astarra, Mad Carthos and Truthseer Kel.

My 2cents for the heros:

I think you should also take in account which weapons are available early on and which skills might come handy for the heros.

Shadowblade for melee chars ... one handed, thats why i would choose Lord Hawthorne from pile 1 (and not Buldar from pile 3). Reach is THE melee ability, except Thalia's interrupt move. Strong with the cleave skill for example or with sweep feat card. 16/4/1/4. Solid - no tank tho. Still great damage with 3 melee trait dice right from the start.
Usefull skills: Mighty, Weaponsmastery, Leadership, Cleave, Tiger-Tattoo(?), Tough(?), Knight, Unmoveable

Landrec from pile 1 is cool too - but speed 3 is too slow. There are not only small levels i think, that's why i would not discard Thorn that quickly. Good mage with 3 magic trait dice for 2ct and 12 life and 4 fatigue.

Pile 2:
Nara is the only hero with armor 2. If you consider using Taunt, Tough, she is the one. She has one skill in subterfuge and could get skills like Shadowsoul, Ambidextrous, Swift as well.

Tatianna is a good ranged char. I dunno how often you want to quit at the start of the OL turn tho. This will allow more spawning. And the OL usually kills a hero in one round anyway, else the heros have healing potions, ghost armor rune switch, guards are other options.

Red Scorpion has the same 12/4/1 with one less speed but is much more versatile. 2 trait dice anywhere. She can give off a nice ranged or a nice mage, depending on how your party should look like. In the beginngin she will do fine with a hammer.

Pile 3:
Valadir with 2 magic dice is tempting. Start as melee with average damage of 7 and go for staff of the grave. You want to draw prodigy, or InnerFire for him. But if he should pick Spiritwalker, you will not complain for sure. So since he looks out for Tiger-Tattoo for example i suggest you make clear with Duhtch, how card drawing is done. Are skills drawn by hero 1 out for hero 2? Does hero 1 put unused skills back to pool before hero2 draws? Or even allow switching of skills?

Buldar is another option for a semi-tank if you don't want to go for Nara. 16 life and he can use a 2h melee weapon AND shield, maybe go for Ambidextrous for him (shields cancel 1 wound more), or if he uses Morning-Star he will boost his damage even 1 more with Ambidextrous (available in Forge, close to Tamalir).

Thorn is quite ok as mage ... 2 CT only, 3 magic trait dice, and his special comes realy handy with the +2 speed and fly feat card for example. If you pick him i would draw 1 subterfuge skill card to see if you get swift, acrobat, shadowsoul to make him an excellent runner AND attacker.

Pile 4:
Astarra - I see her on one level with Thalia, Nanok and Hawthorne. 5 speed and 5 fatigue with 12 life and 3 magic melee trait dice for 2 CT and cool special ability.

Except if you want to be special prepared for LT encounters, when Kel's ability unfolds it's true power. 4/4 with 1 more armor is not so bad either. But 3 CT compared to Astarra's 2.

Hawthorne, Nara, Thorn, Astarra - if you want to skip ranged chars and want a quick group (all speed 4+)

Hawthorne, Tatianna, Valadir, Astarra - Shadowblade, Falcon Claw, Staff of Grave and Staff of Punishment / Cone of Fire / Blast

Buldar plus Kel put the focus on LT encounters somewhat i think (high damage and ignore Shadowcloak)

I personally would most likely go for Hawthorne, RedScorpion, Runemaster Thorn and Astarra.

Valadir for Thorn if you want to be tougher and have another melee guy at the start. But if Valadir then going the magic route with him (which is not so bad with 2 starting dice).

Hmm, since Astarra has 5 fatigue, maybe realy take Buldar or Valadir with 3 fatigue from pile3. Then all heros can do one Fatigue secret training to come to the magic 24 fatigue sum.




 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
If you want, I would be fine with you making a group of 4 out of the twelve. Up to you.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
Hi duhtch I will considere your option. While doing so a rule question popped up for me:

The special of Sir Valadir says:

When Sir Valadir spends fagigue to add dice to an attack roll, he adds 2 power dice instead of one. --> This one is pretty clear .. (up to the normal limit of 5 power dice) --> This one raises the following questions:

1) So even when Sir Valadir spends 3 fatigue he gets only 5 additional dice/upgrades?
2) What about normal characters having 6 or 7 fatigue can they also only raise five additional dice?
3) Dice from a power potion are also power dice, does that mean drinking a power potion and using fatigue does not stack?

Currently I am conteemplating Buldar, Valadir and then either Tatianna and Astarra or Red Scorpion and Landrec. I think Tatianna and Astarra can make a nice combo with their powers but I miss out on the damage boost from Landrec . Overall Buldar seems a bit better and Nara or Hawthorn although there are quite a few large monsters around.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
One more question. The power surges of Landrec are for any attack right? There was no later adjustment in any FAQ that they only have been meant to be for magic attacks only?
 
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Re: Looking for a second game
CePeU wrote:


1) So even when Sir Valadir spends 3 fatigue he gets only 5 additional dice/upgrades?
2) What about normal characters having 6 or 7 fatigue can they also only raise five additional dice?
3) Dice from a power potion are also power dice, does that mean drinking a power potion and using fatigue does not stack?


1) With Valadir if he spends 3f, he gets 6 upgrades. It is just like a power potion where you can roll 2 gold or 3 silver, however you want to do it.

2) Normal heroes are the same. Spending 6f would get you 6 dice upgrades. You can only roll a total of 5 per dice though. So you would have to upgrade them during the original roll or add dice after the roll.

3) It does stack. Say you make an attack with Valadir using a power potion. He attacks with 2 black dice, but gets 5 upgrades. You can do it a number of ways, but I will show you the max. So in this case it takes 4 upgrades to make the blacks gold, you have one upgrade remaining do that would add a black dice. So you can roll ggb with your weapon. You can spend 1f with Valadir to make that black into another gold, rolling ggg. After you see the results of the dice (no miss) you can then spend 2f for 4 dice upgrades, but you only have a total of 2 dice left. So you can either roll 2 silver or a black and gold. You can't roll 4 more black because that would be a total of 7 power dice.

As far as Landrec goes he gets 2 surges with every attack. However, when making an attack you get to choose if and how surges and power dice are used. For instance if Landrec sucked with a Hammer, he wouldn't have to usr those surges for damage.
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
CePeU wrote:
One more question. The power surges of Landrec are for any attack right? There was no later adjustment in any FAQ that they only have been meant to be for magic attacks only?


Also an easy way to look for this is to do a search in the digital copy of the rules for Landrec. If you need a copy of the rules, you can find them in the pbf how to. You will also find how to post a character update.

There are no dumb questions and I'm already willing to help out, but I would highly suggest doing a search of the rulebook before asking questions. I'm always here to help. Clarifications are also good to help confirm if you are confused at a certain ruling.
 
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Reinhard Horst
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Re: Looking for a second game
CePeU wrote:
Hi duhtch I will considere your option. While doing so a rule question popped up for me:

The special of Sir Valadir says:

When Sir Valadir spends fagigue to add dice to an attack roll, he adds 2 power dice instead of one. --> This one is pretty clear .. (up to the normal limit of 5 power dice) --> This one raises the following questions:

1) So even when Sir Valadir spends 3 fatigue he gets only 5 additional dice/upgrades?
2) What about normal characters having 6 or 7 fatigue can they also only raise five additional dice?
3) Dice from a power potion are also power dice, does that mean drinking a power potion and using fatigue does not stack?

Currently I am conteemplating Buldar, Valadir and then either Tatianna and Astarra or Red Scorpion and Landrec. I think Tatianna and Astarra can make a nice combo with their powers but I miss out on the damage boost from Landrec . Overall Buldar seems a bit better and Nara or Hawthorn although there are quite a few large monsters around.


NO, you can't leave Hawthorne out! Why is Buldar better than Hawthorne??? Don't take 2x 3 fatigue chars, you will regret it!!!
By the way Buldar reminds me somehow of an DSA mage wielding two pick-axes to maximize damage output .
 
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Re: Looking for a second game
Tibarius wrote:
CePeU wrote:
Hi duhtch I will considere your option. While doing so a rule question popped up for me:

The special of Sir Valadir says:

When Sir Valadir spends fagigue to add dice to an attack roll, he adds 2 power dice instead of one. --> This one is pretty clear .. (up to the normal limit of 5 power dice) --> This one raises the following questions:

1) So even when Sir Valadir spends 3 fatigue he gets only 5 additional dice/upgrades?
2) What about normal characters having 6 or 7 fatigue can they also only raise five additional dice?
3) Dice from a power potion are also power dice, does that mean drinking a power potion and using fatigue does not stack?

Currently I am conteemplating Buldar, Valadir and then either Tatianna and Astarra or Red Scorpion and Landrec. I think Tatianna and Astarra can make a nice combo with their powers but I miss out on the damage boost from Landrec . Overall Buldar seems a bit better and Nara or Hawthorn although there are quite a few large monsters around.


NO, you can't leave Hawthorne out! Why is Buldar better than Hawthorne??? Don't take 2x 3 fatigue chars, you will regret it!!!
By the way Buldar reminds me somehow of an DSA mage wielding two pick-axes to maximize damage output .


Or he can pick LB and get a Walking Stick and Morning Star and be the same, while if he doesn't need Reach he can use an axe and do more damage. In the end when you start getting better weapons LB will be better than Hawthorne. Hawthorne gets 1 more fatigue, which can potentially be important. The max amount of fatigue shared between the hero team is 24.

Like I said before, it really isn't that big of a deal in the long run with a group like this, let alone one where you can pick from all 12. Your team is pretty much going to be strong no matter what.
 
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duhtch
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Re: Looking for a second game
Here is a game in which Valadir is in with two of the best people I have played against, Immortal vs Corbon. If you read over the game you will see all sorts of ways to play the game and Valadir.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/995166/immortal-vs-corbon-in...

 
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Armando Hernandez
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Re: Looking for a second game
Well I come up with two parties

1) Buldar, Valadir, Tatianna, Landrec

2) Buldar, Astarra, Tatianna, Landrec

The charm of Nr. 2 ist that there are two cheap mages in which are quite good on themself and Tatianna and Astarra complement each other with their special I think. But I will try to go with party Nr. 1 as I am playing Astarra in the other campaign allready.

I am not sure how skills will be drawn as the actuall order could make a statisitcal difference and if skills are placed back.

So here we go in this order:
Fighting: Buldar, Valadir
Subterfuge: Tatianna, Valadir, Landrec
Wizardry: Landrec, Valadir


 
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