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Subject: Rubble + Barricades clarification. rss

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Miguel Sanhueza
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The defense bonuses for these are only mentioned in the shoot part of the rules, so does that mean they do not apply during melee?

There's room for interpretation, as the reference page on the back sort of suggests they are applicable to all defense rolls. (I do note the example at the bottom of p15 doesn't give a rubble bonus to the defenders but I'm really not sure if that's deliberate!)

And barricades have no penalty to running or moving through them? Pretty flimsy barricades if you ask me.

Also, they have no other effect to LoS or cause an obscured shot do they? So someone on a hex ADJACENT to the barricade has no advantage when their attacker might be a few hexes away even though they are directly in line with the barricade?

(LoS is slightly strange anyway in some of these cases, the Dreadnought standing in front of a single figure gives an obscured shot bonus if you try to shoot the single figure? Yeah, you're darn tootin it's obscured!)

A slightly tighter rulebook could make this game superb. But then I would have to believe that GW gave a fig about this release as an actual legitimate boardgame.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Barricade give +2 defence against ranged, and do not obscure shots.

I think the barricades are supposed to be temporarily thrown-together shields that are no more than waist height. If you are standing behind them, you can duck down to make yourself harder to hit with ranged weapons (+2 defence) but they are easy to jump over, and if combatants are standing on either side of it swinging power swords neither of them is gaining any particular advantage.

An obscured shot to me is like a speculative shot - you think you know where the enemy are, and you fire off a few rounds hopefully, but you aren't really aiming. When the enemy is behind a barricade, you know where they are, so you can still concentrate your fire on them (applying crits as normal and keeping them pinned down with bolter fire), but they are harder to hit.
 
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Mark
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miggor wrote:
The defense bonuses for these are only mentioned in the shoot part of the rules, so does that mean they do not apply during melee?

There's room for interpretation, as the reference page on the back sort of suggests they are applicable to all defense rolls. (I do note the example at the bottom of p15 doesn't give a rubble bonus to the defenders but I'm really not sure if that's deliberate!)

Agree that terrain Defense Bonuses are lumped together in the Reference Sheet. But, they are not mentioned in the Melee sections, or the example you cited. So, there is no rule that says they are applied in Melee.

Quote:
And barricades have no penalty to running or moving through them? Pretty flimsy barricades if you ask me.

Super Human Space Marines vs hasty barricade. Unstoppable Force meets Movable Object. It probably would not change much if you did not allow a unit to Run "through" a barricade. But, the rules don't say that.

Quote:
Also, they have no other effect to LoS or cause an obscured shot do they? So someone on a hex ADJACENT to the barricade has no advantage when their attacker might be a few hexes away even though they are directly in line with the barricade?

No effect on LoS in the rules. No effect when firing through a Barricade at a more distant target. Shots fired at a unit adjacent to (i.e. directly behind) a barricade have the same defense bonus as an Obscured Shot. Oh, and Defense Bonuses stack. So, Barricade + Obscured = +4 Dice. I had to look up all these up when first playing. But, in the absence of rules, I assume the intent is as (not) written. For what it's worth, these are typical hex-and-counter game conventions.

Quote:
(LoS is slightly strange anyway in some of these cases, the Dreadnought standing in front of a single figure gives an obscured shot bonus if you try to shoot the single figure? Yeah, you're darn tootin it's obscured!)

I think you meant "Obstructed." Occupied hexes block a Clear LOS. An Obstructed LOS can be traced though Occupied hexes.*

Quote:
A slightly tighter rulebook could make this game superb. But then I would have to believe that GW gave a fig about this release as an actual legitimate boardgame.

I'm impressed they even threw a boardgame in with a box of miniatures. Much less a solid boardgame.

It's almost like they care. blush

*Edited to get it right (I hope).
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:
Shots fired at a unit adjacent to (i.e. directly behind) a barricade have the same defense bonus as an Obscured Shot. Oh, and Defense Bonuses stack.


I know what you mean, but thought it's probably worth clarifying that a target only gets the bonus for a barricade if the target is IN the hex with the barricade, and the shot passes through the barricade. Being in the hex adjacent to the barrier doesn't grant the defence bonus.
 
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Miguel Sanhueza
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I think we played our first few missions wrong by allowing the defense bonuses for melee, but all your reasons seem thematically appropriate.

Perhaps I'd feel better throwing in a house rule that any bulk 2 or greater figure moving through a barricade destroys it off the board. It's possible these early terminators can leap like Linford Christie but I always imagined them waddling like the armoured aliens in The Fifth Element...
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Miguel Sanhueza
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ZombieMark wrote:


Quote:
(LoS is slightly strange anyway in some of these cases, the Dreadnought standing in front of a single figure gives an obscured shot bonus if you try to shoot the single figure? Yeah, you're darn tootin it's obscured!)

I think you meant "Obstructed." Occupied hexes block LOS. LOS is a funny thing. A lone figure standing in front of a Dreadnought also blocks the LOS. This might be a way of forcing the players to fire at the nearest target (which was a feature of 40K V2 and Necromunda, among others.


No, you CAN still shoot at someone standing behind an occupied hex, p14 under Obscured Shots in the second column says it clearly. The problem is that in the Shoot paragraph above it says that LoS IS blocked by occupied hexes but then doesn't tell you to look below at the Obscured Shot rule!

See, rulebook needs a sense check!
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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miggor wrote:
ZombieMark wrote:


Quote:
(LoS is slightly strange anyway in some of these cases, the Dreadnought standing in front of a single figure gives an obscured shot bonus if you try to shoot the single figure? Yeah, you're darn tootin it's obscured!)

I think you meant "Obstructed." Occupied hexes block LOS. LOS is a funny thing. A lone figure standing in front of a Dreadnought also blocks the LOS. This might be a way of forcing the players to fire at the nearest target (which was a feature of 40K V2 and Necromunda, among others.


No, you CAN still shoot at someone standing behind an occupied hex, p14 under Obscured Shots in the second column says it clearly. The problem is that in the Shoot paragraph above it says that LoS IS blocked by occupied hexes but then doesn't tell you to look below at the Obscured Shot rule!

See, rulebook needs a sense check!


The rules refers to CLEAR line of sight. If the line does not pass through an occupied space, a blocked space, or a blast door, the unit has clear line of sight.

The very next paragraph says "If the activated unit does not have a clear line of sight to its target, it may still be able to make an obscured shot."

I actually think the rules are very straightforward and cleanly presented.
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Mark
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I misstated (and just now corrected) the LOS rules. A CLEAR LOS cannot be traced through an Occupied hex, or a Blocked hex, or closed Blast Door. It can be traced along a straight edge of a hex, so long as it does not pass directly between two Blocked or Occupied hexes.

An, Obscured Shot LOS may be traced though an Occupied Hex, but not a Blocked Hex or closed Blast Door. I would guess an Obscured Shot could be traced between straight edges of two Occupied hexes.

It's accurate as written. It's not hard to follow. But, it's not how I would have written the two rules.



 
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Arnaud VERBEEREN
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Concerning barricades and movement: they do not block or hinder movement from one hex to an onther, right?
They're only of importance for shooting...
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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arnaud_vb wrote:
Concerning barricades and movement: they do not block or hinder movement from one hex to an onther, right?
They're only of importance for shooting...


Correct. You can move trough them unhindered.

Note that barricades are different to sealed blast doors, which do block movement and line of sight.
 
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Mark
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Additionally, hexes on each side of a Sealed Blast Door are not considered adjacent. Which would affect Pinning, movement, and some shooting Critical Hits, etc.
 
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