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Subject: Reimplementation/reimagining of Glen More (Lunarchitects) closing soon rss

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Ed Hughes
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I'm hesitant to back this game because I already have glen more, and this doesn't seem to add anything substantive. The art is average bordering on ugly too.
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Bruce Murphy
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And there's no alcohol!

B>
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Matt D
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I dunno. I kinda feel the same way about this as I do about the guy who keeps promoting "Megacquire", an "improved and updated" version of Sid Sackson's Classic Acquire. It seems (to me) like a (perhaps well meaning) attempt to cash-in on the success of an established game without the permission or involvement of the designer or publisher. Like with the other example, rather than making a brief reference to this game being inspired by Glen More and moving on, their KS page spends a LOT of time talking about Glen More and comparing it. That, to me, seems like they really just wanted to do Glen More with enough variation to call it a different game.

And mentioning that they contacted the designer and are "keeping him updated" doesn't say anything. It seems to imply tacit approval of the project from him whereas we all know that copyright laws being what they are he had no recourse if they wanted to steal his ENTIRE mechanic and retheme it.

If the game isn't strong enough to stand on its own merits and needs so much about "Glen More" to bolster its own appeal, I can see why it hasn't met its funding goals. Nevermind the fact that Glen More, while a truly great game (and one of my favorites of all time) isn't even a hugely popular and owned game within our own tiny segment of the gaming community. Not saying it's not liked, but its a niche game within a niche market. And I'm not sure the "improvements" necessarily appeal to those that like the original Glen More.

I don't like to rain on people's parade generally, and I truly believe that this is a project of passion from people who love Glen More and aren't just trying to cheaply ripoff a game for profit (if it were I am quite sure they would pick a more widely known and regarded game). I empathize with the folks who put so much time and effort into developing this. I'm just not sure the product being presented is strong enough to draw support. Hence its current struggle to achieve funded status.

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Jason Reid
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I think it will likely fund, but barely. Which may be the worst case scenario for a first-time publisher.
 
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Robert F-C
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I can obviously see why if you already have Glen More then you would consider more carefully whether you need both.

The theme is a subjective area, i.e., whether the whiskey production or moon-base planning floats your boat. I like the mechanics, don't have Glen More myself and like the sci-fi & family friendly theme more so those are my reasons for being interested in the game.

There have been a number of comments made about the previous tile designs (myself included). There was a recent backer poll which presented some newer and (IMO) better looking tile designs - so hopefully those will be made public before the end of the campaign.

Quote:
rather than making a brief reference to this game being inspired by Glen More and moving on, their KS page spends a LOT of time talking about Glen More and comparing it

Really? There's one short section mentioning it's connection to Glen More and aside from that, the name "Glen More" only appears in the text two other times (once in the intro, and once referring to a review).

Anyway it's good to see a different view point from an owner of the original game.
 
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Matt D
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I'm not necessarily trying to get into an argument about it, but I would consider two full paragraphs under the first section of the project description to be excessive. It's probably somewhere around 15% of the overall content of the description, which I think is a lot of time to spend talking about a game that this isn't. Then again they also had four paragraphs about their fancy tray which is only available as an add-on.

I mean, I wish these guys the best of luck. Really, I do. As I said, I think they are earnest in trying to make this an homage to Glen More and not just trying to cash in on its reputation. That being said, I think when you are doing that your offering has to stand strongly on it's own merits, and in this case they are leaning on Glen More a bit too strongly.

But we'll see. They are a shade under 80% with five days remaining. Maybe this will get a last minute push.
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Ed Hughes
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I looked at the pnp, and I have to say, this game is a straight up rip off of Glen More. Copyright law for games only makes the title and artwork proprietary, not the rules. This game appears to be exploiting that fact.

I think that gamers should not support this kind of intellectual larceny. It's bad for the industry, and bad for the hobby as a whole.
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Greg Taylor
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I see this as a lot like the various spin-off designs from Glory to Rome, specifically Mottainai and Uchronia.

Or perhaps more appropriately Roll Through the Ages: The Iron Age, which spun off from Roll Through the Ages: The Bronze Age, but has a different designer.

You could also compare it to Cthulhu Realms (a reimplementation of Star Realms).

Or you could even say it's a Carcassonne: The City to Carcassonne.


The designer of Lunarchitects has the blessing of Matthias Cramer (designer of Glen More), and has done sufficient development (variable scoring, etc.) to make it a different offering, but still clearly in the same family (again see above examples).

Whether it adds enough new to be worth someone owning both depends on the person who's considering it.

For myself, I like Glen More, and would like to play more games like it. I see Lunarchitects as I would an expansion or map-pack for games I love (like a Ticket to Ride map pack, or perhaps more appropriately, Lunar Rails or Age of Steam : The Moon). And from that point of view, it's worth having as a variant and fun retheme of a game I already own and love.

We're not talking about a questionable reskin without the original designer's permission (looking at you Flash Duel, which didn't please Dr. Knizia much at all).

So I'm all for it existing, and looking forward to playing it as essentially a Glen More variant.
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Ed Hughes
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Do we know for a fact that this game has his blessing? From what I read, they definitely seemed to want to give that impression without explicitly saying so- the closest they came was saying that he had 'been informed'. That isn't the same thing.
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Guro Bjerkan
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I considered this kickstarter, so I starred it to give me some time to think first, but in the end I decided not to back it for the following reasons:

1) Price - it's not a bad price, and the shipping's alright, but the total cost of getting the game to me because of the tax and import fees that are triggered is pretty high (735 NOK)

2) The look - I know that games can be great without stunning graphics, but it's a game I haven't played so it's less tempting because of its generic and bland look.

3) I got a copy of Glen More shipped to me with express international delivery which was not enough to trigger customs and ultimately cost me less than half of what this Kickstarter would (300 NOK), and sure it's the German copy, but with English paste-ups, rules and reference cards available for print it will play just as well as the English version. I can live with the German tile names, no problem

So ultimately I found buying Glen More was a much better alternative for me, I think it looks a lot better, it cost me way less and I don't have to wait 10 months to play it (the copy I got even arrived a day earlier than anticipated, and I ordered it yesterday morning). But good luck to the project, had I not lived behind an import wall I might have chosen differently
 
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Greg Taylor
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
Do we know for a fact that this game has his blessing? From what I read, they definitely seemed to want to give that impression without explicitly saying so- the closest they came was saying that he had 'been informed'. That isn't the same thing.

I haven't found it in print. I'm going on Richard Ham's (rahdo) run-through. But that is certainly second-hand. I expected to find it in print, but when I looked for it, I couldn't find anything so definitive.

So...maybe? It's worth pressing on. I'd hate for another Flash Duel situation.

 
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Adam P
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
I'm hesitant to back this game because I already have glen more, and this doesn't seem to add anything substantive. The art is average bordering on ugly too.
Me too.

I backed it because I felt Glen More desperately needs an update. I tried to teach GM a month ago and players felt it was drab, but they loved the game.

Kickstarters don't do well this time of year. A similar campaign was New Bedford, that struggled around this time of year.
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Robert F-C
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
The art is average bordering on ugly too.

By the way, that just redid all the tile graphic design art for the game on the KS page ... which in my opinion is a definite improvement over the previous art.
 
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Guro Bjerkan
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I don't get that impression that it's because of the time of year. I only just started backing kickstarter games this past month and the projects that caught my eyes have done well. I think Lunarchitects is struggling because it doesn't stand out properly, the colours used in the game are bland, so it doesn't give that initial "wow" factor that the games I've backed have. It more gives the "this could be good, but I'm not entirely convinced" vibe. The game looks okay, better than a lot of the other stuff on KS, but still just okay, the components are okay, but nothing special.
 
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Matt D
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lindyhopper wrote:
themanfromsaturn wrote:
Do we know for a fact that this game has his blessing? From what I read, they definitely seemed to want to give that impression without explicitly saying so- the closest they came was saying that he had 'been informed'. That isn't the same thing.

I haven't found it in print. I'm going on Richard Ham's (rahdo) run-through. But that is certainly second-hand. I expected to find it in print, but when I looked for it, I couldn't find anything so definitive.

So...maybe? It's worth pressing on. I'd hate for another Flash Duel situation.


Totally not trying to say anything negative about Rahdo, because he is awesome. But things sometimes have a way of slipping into the realm of "fact" when they are not. For example, no one in Star Wars ever utters the phrase "Luke, I am your
Spoiler (click to reveal)
father
." (Ok, spoiler tag may be overdoing it, but you never know.) The line is "No. I am your
Spoiler (click to reveal)
father
." But it has been misquoted so many times that now people swear they remember hearing it that way.

It's entirely possible that Rahdo read the same statement that you did, and drew the same (incorrect) conclusion. I will say that I, by my nature and by profession, am extraordinarily careful with my own language, and thus pick up on small subtleties of other statements. I personally think that line was -very- well crafted to make people think that Mr. Cramer gave his permission without saying it. And if enough people interpret it that way, it is bound to gather its own following, so to speak. Perception becoming reality.

In any case. While I am not sure if I will be successful, I have engaged Mr. Cramer directly and asked him if he would be willing to come into this thread and weigh in, so we will have the answer instead of conjecture. And the whole debate can be put to rest.

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David Janik-Jones
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this | Transgender pride | Unconditional love, pride, and support | LGBTQ Ally | The Raven King (game publisher) ... that's me!
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Fortunately I have kept both Glen More and König von Siam even though I've pared my collection to a 1/4 of what is was even five years ago. And thus, I don't need re-implementations.
 
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Matthias Cramer
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Dear all,

Glen More is still under contract with Ravensburger / alea. That means that the game mechanics are licensed exclusivly to Ravensburger (and Rio Grande as a subcontractor). That means a re-theming of an existing game needs the permission of the license holder. This permission was not given.

Quote:
I backed it because I felt Glen More desperately needs an update.
It will get an update!

Matthias Cramer
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Jason Speicher
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well this is interesting.
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Duncan Idaho
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Sleeran wrote:
Dear all,

Glen More is still under contract with Ravensburger / alea. That means that the game mechanics are licensed exclusivly to Ravensburger (and Rio Grande as a subcontractor). That means a re-theming of an existing game needs the permission of the license holder. This permission was not given.

Quote:
I backed it because I felt Glen More desperately needs an update.
It will get an update!

Matthias Cramer

Doesn't get much clearer than that. Now we can add "intentionally misleading/manipulative/deceptive" to "using copyright loopholes to steal someone else's work".
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Jason Speicher
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Sleeran wrote:
Dear all,

Glen More is still under contract with Ravensburger / alea. That means that the game mechanics are licensed exclusivly to Ravensburger (and Rio Grande as a subcontractor). That means a re-theming of an existing game needs the permission of the license holder. This permission was not given.

Quote:
I backed it because I felt Glen More desperately needs an update.
It will get an update!

Matthias Cramer

Matthias Cramer , is this correct ?

"Glen More's designer, Matthias Cramer, has not been directly involved with the development process going from Glen More to Lunarchitects. However, we did contact Mr. Cramer early, and have kept him informed of our progress along the way." ?

Are you ok with this Lunarchitects can be called "inspired by" or even a "reimagining of" Glen More, by Matthias Cramer (printed in German by Alea/Ravensburger, English version published by Rio Grande Games, in 2010). ?

The never state a re-theme, but simply a re-imaging of Glen More
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Matthias Cramer
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It is correct that first me and then Ravensburger was asked for permitting the re-theming of the game.

"kept him informed" leaves a lot of room for interpretations. I've never played the game and was reading the rules today for the first time via the kickstarter page. I still do not know the full tile set yet.

In general, I am not able and willing to compare the games.
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Jason Speicher
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Sleeran wrote:
It is correct that first me and then Ravensburger was asked for permitting the re-theming of the game.

"kept him informed" leaves a lot of room for interpretations. I've never played the game and was reading the rules today for the first time via the kickstarter page. I still do not know the full tile set yet.

In general, I am not able and willing to compare the games.

it would seem that the intentions of this new game are good, and it does seem to have some big differences with changing end goals, using hexes instead of squares, and such.
 
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Dan Cunningham
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Matthias:
After I explained what this project was, exactly what was re-used and what all the differences were, and even proposed the use of the tagline "a reimagining of Glen More", you concluded with:

I am fine with that. Would you be so kind and send me a copy as soon the game is published?
All the best for your project,
Matthias


I certainly felt like that was a go-ahead from you, but I admit I may have misunderstood.
I sent you a mostly-updated rulebook back in June in reply to your request, I'm sorry if that went unnoticed.

Additionally, in all of my communications with Ravensburger/alea, I have been open and suggestive of licensing, despite the fact that I don't believe they would be necessary. I have once again extended contact to Stefan Brück (Prod. manager, alea) to further discuss this in light of Matthias's comments.

I will keep this thread informed, of course.

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Joe B
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Sleeran wrote:
Dear all,

Glen More is still under contract with Ravensburger / alea. That means that the game mechanics are licensed exclusivly to Ravensburger (and Rio Grande as a subcontractor). That means a re-theming of an existing game needs the permission of the license holder. This permission was not given.

Quote:
I backed it because I felt Glen More desperately needs an update.
It will get an update!

Matthias Cramer

ARGH!

I just broke down and ordered the German version this week! Oh, well.

Still, I'm very happy to hear that Glen More will have new life breathed into it.
 
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Jason Speicher
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i do see this more than just a re-theme, but i've not played it. It would seem that Dan has always had intentions to honor and give credit to the source of inspiration his game came from.
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