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Subject: Cards like Sleep Spore interactions with cards like Incorporeal rss

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Paul King
United States
Peoria
Illinois
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Hi,

So this has been a point of contention with my play group, the interaction of cards like Incorporeal and Sleep Spores. Because the rules now include "change in power" for affect, it has come under question how defensive abilities work with ongoing abilities like Sleep Spores. I have done some searching on this, but have not found any threads that provide a specific answer, and a lot of them are operating under the "old" affect rules that did not include change in power.

Also of note, I will be talking about Incorporeal here, but Tooth and Claw... and Guns is equally frustrating, and I find it funny that my friends have not even begun to consider the problems with that card. Also of note, my friends for some reason avoid reading the rulebook, no matter how many times I offer it to them. This makes discussion... frustrating with them.

Example:

Quote:
2x Sleep Spores - Play on a base. Ongoing: Other players' minions have -1 power here (minimum power 0).


Quote:
2x Incorporeal - Play on one of your minions. Ongoing: This minion is not affected by other players' cards.


Quote:
1x Tooth and Claw... and Guns - Play on a minion. Ongoing: If an ability would affect this minion, destroy this card and the ability does not affect this minion.


(1)I am a Ghosts/Wizard player against the Plants/Bears player. On a base, I have a Ghost on a base. I play Incorporeal on the Ghost on my turn. On my opponent's turn, he plays Sleep Spores on the base with the Ghost. Under the current rules, my Ghost would not be affected by Sleep Spores. Easy (I think)

(2)Now, let's try another one. Same players. I have a Ghost on a base. My opponent plays Sleep Spores on the base with the Ghost. My Ghost now has -1 power. On my turn, I play Incorporeal. Under my understanding of what affect means, the Incorporeal will not retroactively prevent the -1 power from the Sleep Spores. It already happened. Incorporeal will block further effects.

My friends do not agree with my ruling under (2). They try to make up an idea that Sleep Spores "resets" at the beginning or end of a turn or something. Or have an idea that affect is the targeting of the minion (which the rulebook says nothing about). They believe that Incorporeal would be able to prevent the -1 affect of Sleep Spores in (2).I do not believe a prevention ability such as Incorporeal, Hideout, or Tooth and Claw... and Guns can retroactively stop an ability. The -1 affect happened as soon as the minion was on the same base as Sleep Spores and was controlled by another player other than the Sleep Spores. That is when the effect happens in my belief. I agree that the rules are not especially vocal on this point, but I think they're reading too much into their idea of what they think "should" occur and how the rules actually work. (Infiltrate was a big problem too.)

Another Problem would be Tooth and Claw... and Guns. If I have that on my minion, and then another player plays Sleep Spores on the base with my minion with Tooth and Claw... and Guns, the only thing I can see happening is that the Tooth and Claw... and Guns would be destroyed and the -1 power affect would be prevented from affecting my minion as long as it stays on that base. There is nothing specific in the rules that makes me believe that there is some "reset", where the Sleep Spores will start affecting the minion. However, if that minion were to leave the base by moving or being returned to hand, and then ends up back at the Sleep Spores base, then the Sleep Spores would try again and he would be affected, because the minion is on the base and another player's minion. That's when the affect happens in my opinion, even if it is a bit fiddly to remember that Sleep Spores has not affected my minion. *shrug*

In addition, I can see further issues where I have a minion with Incorporeal on a base with another player's Sleep Spores. If Incorporeal was destroyed, what would happen?

Quote:
From pg 9 of the Pretty Pretty Princess rulebook
Affect: A card is affected if it is moved, returned, destroyed, placed, or is changed in power or controller, or has an action attached.

From pg 10 of the Pretty Pretty Princess rulebook
Ongoing: Most abilities happen and then they'r over, or else they end at the end of the turn. Ongoing abilities are always active as long as they're around


It is funny to note that the AEG website does not appear to have the Munchkin rulebook. Also, they still appear to have the Munchkin set as "Coming Soon". At least, that's what I saw with a cursory glance. For some commentary and thoughts on "Affect" and some thoughts about its interactions with other cards, check out this Wiki.
http://smashup.wikia.com/wiki/Affect#Affect


This is my opinion as of yet. I am open for discussion, and am definitely looking forward to an extensive official FAQ. The game may seem simple, but players that play the game a lot will consistently find problems with the rules. It continues to be a problem with my playgroup, but I love the idea of the game so much and have devoted a good amount of time to it. Anyways, fire away, I would like to hear your opinions with this. I have other rules questions that come up, but this one seems to be an issue.

As a side note, since this is not part of the official game, I want to play a custom faction with my friends (Hackers by desocupado) that has cards that let me "Take control of another player's action played on a base." (However, I would probably change it to be "until end of turn" for my usage.)
Again with Sleep Spores.

(3) I have Hacker minions on a base, my opponent has Killer Plant minions and Sleep Spores on a base, and another player has Halflings on a base. Sleep Spores gave my minions and the Halfling minion -1 power.

What would happen if I "took control" of Sleep Spores?
My understanding would be that my minion would no longer have -1 power, and my opponent's minions would now have -1 power, because it is not MY Sleep Spores. The Halflings would continue to have -1 power. It would all change back at end of turn once my "control" affect ends and the Killer Plants player regains control.

Now a complication

(4) Same setup as (3), but I had a minion with Incorporeal. The Incorporeal was played AFTER Sleep Spores, so my idea would be that it has -1 power from the Sleep Spores since Incorporeal should not be retroactive. Now, I "take control" of Sleep Spores until end of turn. Under my belief in (3) my minions no longer have -1, including the Incorporeal one. Then, at end of turn, the Killer Plants player regains control of Sleep Spores. In my opinion, my Incorporeal minion would not reaquire the -1 power from the further change in control of Sleep Spores...

I could just change the card to be "transfer another player's action to another base", but I wanted to flesh out this "take control" idea. Transferring the action can still be a good ability, but I do not think the taking control of another player's action is more powerful than taking control of a minion...

Anyways, let me know what your thoughts are on this. Thank you in advance for any help, and I look forward to hearing from ya.
 
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David Lee
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Los Angeles
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The easiest explanation for these, I believe, is that cards that say you can't do something supersede those that say you can. Therefore, the Incorporeal always takes precedence over the Sleep Spores regardless of the order, since Incorporeal uses negative wording.
 
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Andre Oliveira
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Quote:
2x Sleep Spores - Play on a base. Ongoing: Other players' minions have -1 power here (minimum power 0).

2x Incorporeal - Play on one of your minions. Ongoing: This minion is not affected by other players' cards.


1 - Your minion isn't affected by spores, since it is an opponent's card. Spore's constantly affects minion with power reduction.

2 - Your minion isn't affected anymore by the spores after becoming immune to enemy cards (spore is an opponent's card).

3 - If you control Sleep spores, your minions stop having -1, but the opponents minions get -1, including plants.

4 - They aren't retroactive. Spores is ongoing, it affects a minion when the condition "another player minion here" is met. If you control it, it doesn't affect your minions.

Here's why I think it's like this:
If you play a minion after sleep spores has been played, it affects the new minion. Same happens if it move into the sleep spore's base and stop occurring if it moves out of it.
As a rule of thumbs card in smash up don't have memory.
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Paul King
United States
Peoria
Illinois
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Ok, that clears my head a little bit. It's hard whenever there is not an exact wording that states when the Ongoing ability would reapply. And truthfully, this has really been the only trouble we have had with Ongoing. Also, in the end, it does not affect a whole bunch. Guess I'm gonna have to own up to this now. XD
 
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