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T. Rosen
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I recently received a copy of Dune and am going to be playing for the first time on Friday. After reading the rules, I am struck by the number of options available, and am seeking some guidance on which rules to use and which not to use. I also have a few clarifying questions to make sure I get everything right on this first playing, so it’s as good as possible since I’ve been wanting this game for a long time now.

First and foremost, since I have the Descartes edition, it includes both the Duel and the Spice Harvest expansion, and I am wondering generally whether people think it would be a good idea to include either or both of these on my first play (the other 5 players also have never played before, but we’ve all played many complicated board games before), or whether we should hold off on introducing these expansions. I’m not worried about everyone being able to understand any extra complexity, so it’s more about how to make the gameplay as interesting and enjoyable as possible. I’m particularly intrigued by the optional houses (Lansraad, Bene Tleilax, and Ix), but figure it’s probably best to stick with the original six for this time, right?

1) Winning Condition: The chart given in my rules translation says that you need to control 4 strongholds to win in a 2-player game, 4 in a 3-player game (or 5 in an alliance), 3 in a 4-player game (or 4 in a two-way alliance, or 5 in a three-way alliance). But the chart doesn’t say anything about playing with 5 or 6 players? I thought I had read that the game is best when played with 6 players, so that is what I’m planning to do. Am I right in assuming that a player still needs 3 strongholds on their own to win in a 6-player game, or is it down to 2 perhaps? Since there are only 5 on the board, I assume it’s still all 5 needed for a three-way (or more) alliance? What about for a two-way alliance?

2) Super Leader: What do people think about using the super 10-strength leader? I’m inclined to use it, if only because those six characters are the most well-known, and so I’d enjoy using them more. I notice a suggestion in the rules about using the 10-strength leaders, but adapting them so they only have a strength of 8, which seems like possibly a good idea. Would people advise against including them altogether? If including them, then weakening them? Do they really affect gameplay that much, seeing as how everyone gets the same advantage, so there’s really no advantage or disadvantage?

3) Starred Tokens: I notice that the Fremen and Imperial have starred tokens, which are basically like double strength, but are not used in the “basic game.” I’m inclined to use them because they add an extra bit of theme to the game, since the Fremen and Imperial should be able to have some troops stronger than everyone else, but also because I assume they help make the variable players more balanced, no? Anyone think it would be a bad idea to use the starred tokens in a first game?

4) Ten New Treachery Cards: While I’m unlikely to use the Spice Harvest deck, Voting deck, Shares deck, Access deck, Planet deck, and Dueling deck from the two expansions, I don’t see any reason to remove the 10 new treachery cards that came included in the Treachery deck (5 from the Duel expansion and 5 from the Spice Harvest expansion). Is there some reason I should search out those 10 expansion cards in order to remove them from the Treachery deck, or is it harmless to leave them in there?

5) Weather: I am very torn over which method of controlling the movement of the storm to use. One method seems to fit more with the theme, but the other seems more interesting in terms of the gameplay. The method that seems to fit better with the theme is where the Fremen player draws a random storm movement marker from 1 to 6, can see it a round in advance, and then reveals it when the storm moves. The method that seems more interesting in terms of the gameplay is where the two players whose dots are nearest to the storm choose a number from 1 to 3 on their battle wheels, add those together, and move the storm that number of spaces. I like the idea of the Fremen knowing the weather in advance, but I also like the idea of two players getting to have some impact on how far it moves, rather than the distance being chosen randomly. Thoughts from those who have played before and maybe tried both alternatives?

6) Player Dots: There are six player dots surrounding the map (except for the one missing in the obvious location), and these seem to affect gameplay in relatively important ways, but how do you decide which player dot belongs to each player? Do you base it on the starting provinces where each player gets to put units, or just randomly based on where everyone happens to sit?

7) Traitors:

a) If you happen to not draw a single leader disc belonging to an opponent then do you not get to have a traitor, or do you get to draw again? It would seem pretty sad to not get a traitor, but it would also seem pretty unlikely. Has it ever happened to anyone, and did it really negatively affect the game?

b) After a player’s leader becomes a traitor and is killed because their opponent announced “treachery,” does that leader remain a traitor for the rest of the game? Is the player who now knows that the leader is a traitor required to revive that leader still (if they want to get all 5 back and be able to re-revive a leader that dies a second time), and keep using them? I guess they could know not to use them against that specific player, is that how it works? Or does the leader just serve as a traitor once and not any more after that, it seems like a powerful enough effect that a one time use would be enough?

8) Storm Round: The rules say that any units or spice in a sand territory over which the storm passes or stops are killed. Can this be right? So if the storm moves 6 spaces then an entire one-third of the board (since there are 18 longitude sectors) is completely wiped out? I guess units in the rock, stronghold, and polar sink survive, but most of the board appears to be sand, and this sounds like an awful lot of death and destruction? Does the storm often not move the full 6 spaces? Do people tend to hang out in the strongholds, rocks, and polar sink? Does the storm actually only kill stuff on the space where it lands, and not everything it passes over?

9) Spice Blow:

a) How do you decide in which longitudinal sector of a region the spice goes? Does it matter? It seems like it would matter for the movement of the storm since the storm wipes out spice in sectors that it passes/reaches. So spice could survive in a region if its not in the sector that the storm touches (e.g., Plaine de la Chaine de Habbanya). The same question also applies when it says that the asterisk section receives no spice if the storm is there, but what if the region on the card has sectors where the storm is not, can the spice go there instead?

b) The Advanced Game says to reveal two territory cards instead of one on every turn during this phase. I am inclined to do this during my first game because it seems like it would get more spice onto the board (twice as much in fact), so people wouldn’t all have to flock to the same spice every turn. Does revealing two cards for the spice blow every turn reduce fighting too much though? Does it increase the number of Nexuses in the game too much, allowing for forming/breaking alliances too often? What are people’s general feelings on doubling the number of spice cards revealed each turn? I guess if you do this then you have to use the Advanced Combat rules as well (supporting units in combat with spice), so that there is something else to spend spice on, since you’ll end up having more of it, right?

10) Bidding Round: It says that if a Treachery card is passed by everyone, all remaining cards are returned to the top of the Treachery deck. Does this include the card that is passed by everyone, or is that card discarded? I’m not sure what exactly “remaining” means. Also, I think I know this, but no one gets to see what the treachery cards they are bidding on are, and no one gets to see what cards each player wins are, right?

11) Shipment: You can ship units onto any territory on the map? Wow! So your player dot doesn’t matter for deploying units then, you can just drop them anywhere on the planet? On the other hand, the Fremen can only drop them near Le Grande Plaine, but can deploy them all completely for free? So the Fremen could have every unit on the board on turn one?

12) Movement: The rules say that “each player may move, as a group, any number of his tokens from one territory into one other territory.” I’m not sure I understand quite what this means, particularly the “as a group” part. Does this mean that if I have 6 units in one space, that I must move all 6 of them together (i.e., as a group), or can I move 4 of them out, leaving 2 behind? Does “as a group” simply mean that I can’t take those 4 and split them up into multiple territories, or does it mean that I can’t split up a group by moving away part of it? If it means the latter, then it seems like you can’t have very many different groups of units on the board since you can only introduce one army per turn, and never break it up into smaller armies, is that right? Finally, it says that tokens block movement if two other players are already there, but only in a stronghold? So tokens don’t block movement if two other players are already there in a rock or sand region, that seems odd?

13) Leader Revival: I’m slightly confused by the leader revival rules. They say that a player can revive one leader per turn until all of his leaders have been revived if all 5 are in the tanks, and that a revived leader that is killed again cannot be revived another time until all other leaders have been revived and killed. So if I have all 5 leaders killed, then I can revive one of them. If that one isn’t killed, I can revive another one on the next turn? Let’s say then I skip a turn or two of leader revival, so now I have 3 in the tanks, then I can continue reviving, even though I no longer have all 5 leaders in the tanks, as required for leader revival? Do you have to revive as many as you want on a single turn, and then wait for them to die before reviving again? Maybe this is obvious and I’m just confusing things but this part seems especially odd.

14) Battles: Since it says that the winning player loses as many tokens as he dialed on his battle wheel, both sides could be wiped out, if the winning side dialed all of his troops? So do people tend to only dial a small number of their units? It seems sort of like a prisoner’s dilemma where both sides would rather if both agreed not to dial very many, but one side will inevitably defect and dial a couple more, but since there are numerous iterations, maybe it’s possible to overcome the game theory problem and actually get people to keep casualties low, no? I guess I’ll have to see the battle system in action to really understand. It also seems very luck-based whether the weapon and/or defense treachery cards used happen to match or not since you have no idea what cards your opponent even has, let alone which they’re choosing to play, but maybe it works well in practice, I shall see, thoughts?

15) Additional Character Advantages: What do people think about using these? How can I not play with the Kwisatz Haderach ability? The Bene Gesserit power to co-exist also seems really interesting, so do people generally like adding these additional character advantages or do they make it too complicated or unbalanced?

16) Longer Game: How long does the regular game usually last? Only 2 hours like BGG says or longer? The rules suggest either eliminating alliances, restricting them to 2 players maximum, or increasing the number of strongholds needed to win? Are any of these good ideas, or is it long enough as it is? What about adding extra territories as strongholds, like the Shield Wall, False Wall East or West, or Harga Pass?

17) Increased Spice Flow: What about giving players who occupy Carthag, Arrakeen, and Tuek’s Sietch extra spice? This is listed as an “optional rule,” so is it a good option to give the players already on their way to victory (and with the ornithopter movement advantage) extra spice as well, or not such a good idea?

18) Family Atomic card: It says that this card destroys the shield wall “so that the Imperial Basin, Arrakeen and Carthag are no longer protected from the storm.” I have no clue what that means. I thought the storm only killed units and spice in sand spaces, so it would never have any effect on Arrakeen or Carthag. I also figured the storm killed units and spice in the Imperial Bassin from the beginning, but is that not the case? Does the storm kill units and spice in every sand space but the Imperial Bassin (until Family Atomics is used), I didn’t see that mentioned anywhere in the storm rules.

19) Residual Poison card: I don’t understand why the person who has this card played on them wouldn’t always challenge it immediately and just lose the leader right away? If the person playing the card is actually the playing the correct card then they have no incentive to retract it ever, and will just keep taking the 1 to 4 spice bribe forever, right? If the person playing the card is bluffing then you might as well get the 3x penalty then? So why would anyone ever bluff a residual poison card, it seems like a mistake, and why actually pay the bribe, if they can just keep the bribe out there forever?

Alright, many thanks to anyone who stuck with me through all that, and even more thanks to anyone who takes the time respond to any of these questions about the rules and options. I’m really looking forward to trying out the game!
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Chris Jones
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First off, probably the longest question I have ever seen on the Geek. Don't have much time at the mo (will have later today) but I advise you keep it as simple as you can.

Ignore the expansions, use the basic Treachery card set for now, try to get 6 player if you can and use the basic rules - no extra spice blow, no paying spice for troops. I think alot is lost when the player abilities aren't fully used so use them.

Will write more later

CHRIS

PS I was in about the same place about 2 months ago -lots of questions and so much information that does contradict. there is often no option but to have a set of house rules as no one ever agrees on all of them!
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Chris Jones
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Thommy8 wrote:

includes both the Duel and the Spice Harvest expansion?

Just don't. Dune is about a 4 hour plus game even when you know what you're doing. Keep it simple. Most people feel that the expansions add little to the game other than length and complication. For first time pay - NO!

Thommy8 wrote:

1) Winning Condition: 5 or 6 players?


Without alliances, individual players need either 4 (2 player game) or 3 strongholds to win. With alliances of 2 the collective need 4 and with three all 5 must be controlled. In alliances of more than 4 its usually 5 plus the shield wall. there are also additional rules for using extra Strongholds to increase the game length (Habbanya Ridge etc.)

Thommy8 wrote:

2) Super Leader: What do people think about using the super 10-strength leader?


I like the Leader 10 and see no reason to change it. To stop the moaners you could reduce the maximum to 8, but an unblocked poison or weapon will kill anyone and there are rules for effects brought about by the loss of your leader.

Thommy8 wrote:

3) Starred Tokens.


This is not a majorly complex rule. they count for 2 units but ship as one. Remember that the starred emperor tokens only count as one against the Fremen

Thommy8 wrote:

4) Ten New Treachery Cards.


I like some of them and play with them, but they can cause issues. A favourite and annoyingly over powered effect is to Cone of Silence the Treachery card bidding and if the Harkonnen player does it there is no catching them for the whole game as they just fill their hand with cards. Think about setting limits on some cards, but for the basic play i'd include them all. Make sure you have the complete 45 cards, many are often mentioned (kriminon and Zenobia drug) but never included in the collections. I'm not sure myself they actually exist!

Thommy8 wrote:

5) Weather. Fremen or 2-player choice?


I've played both and one gives an advantage to the Fremen the other is merely tactical. No preference - If you've got a Fremen player do it that way, otherwise revert to the 2 combat wheels.

Thommy8 wrote:

6) Player Dots.


Player Dots are determined by who is sitting closest to each one around the table. They determine play order and disputes in timing and for aggressor status in conbat. Nothing complex here!

Thommy8 wrote:

7) Traitors:

a) not draw a single leader disc belonging to an opponent?

b) killed traitor leader remain a traitor for the rest of the game? Is the player who now knows that the leader is a traitor required to revive that leader still (if they want to get all 5 back and be able to re-revive a leader that dies a second time), and keep using them?


a - No drawn opponnent leader? then you don't get one - very rare to draw 4 of your own faction - remember to remove the Leaders of factions not in play.

b - Killed Leaders when revived still only betray you if you attack the player who hold hims as a tritor - make a note and attack with a different one - beware the Harkonnen can use their Traitors to betray the opponenet of an ally. Thus it is still worthwhile reviving all your Leaders unless you're playing 2 player, which is not adviasble.

Thommy8 wrote:

8) Storm Round: storm passes or stops are killed. ...rock, stronghold, and polar sink survive, ...move full 6 spaces? ..hang out in the strongholds, rocks, and polar sink? ..storm kill stuff on the space where it lands not everything it passes?


Yep all Tokens and Spice are destroyed (half of Fremen rounded up are too) in all Sand regions. The Storm can move 6, yes people hang out in Stronghold - you need to to win and it destroys in the stop sector and every sector it passes through. Very messy - especially when you Family Atomics the Shield wall and let the Storm wipe out everything (muhahahahahahahah!!!!)

Thommy8 wrote:

9) Spice Blow:

a) How do you decide in which longitudinal sector for Spice?

b) Enhanced Spice blow? Does it increase the number of Nexuses in the game too much, allowing for forming/breaking alliances too often?


a - you may place Spice in any Sector you like as Territories are divided by Sectors. The same goes for Tokens. A territory may be separated by Storm thus stopping 2 armies fighting or a token group collecting Spice. Whoever draws the Spice card for the blow determines where to place the Spice - and it can be quite tactical.

b - Enhanced Spice blow usually fuels the payment of Spice to power up units - We ignore both! They just complicate and add little to play. There would be more nexi and this could mess up alliances, you could do it just to get more Spice on the board. Most players will not break an alliance until it suits them, so lots of Nexi should have no effect on play.

Thommy8 wrote:

10) Bidding Round: ..passed treachery cards..cards returned to the top of thedeck?


Rules state all cards are returned to the top - we shuffle them back in to keep the flow of cards going. This also includes the card up for bidding. The Atreides player may chose to use Prescience and glance at each treachery card up for bidding. Whether he tells members of his Alliance what it was, or just laughs out loud when someone get Kulon is a matter of tact and taste.

Thommy8 wrote:

11) Shipment:


Player Dots have no effect on where you land troops or start on the board. Yes the Fremen can swarm the board and get anywhere by about turn 3. Scary.

Thommy8 wrote:

12) Movement: ...“each player may move, as a group".... "tokens block movement if two other players are already there"


A token group is all the tokens in one stronghold or a territory. You may move one group of tokens once each turn - a group here being all or a fraction of the group in one place. I have 10 tokens in Tuek's Sietch. I move 5 out and leave 5 behind. My go ends! I could not then move 2 from Tuek's into another territory leaving 3 behind, that would be moving 2 token groups.

Tokens block movement if you cannot legally go there. Only 2 factions may exist in a Stronghold (ignoring Bene Gesserit coexistance), but any number of Factions may prepare to scrap on a sand or rock area. If Tuek's Sietch already has Atreides and Harkonnen in I can't move or land there. However, everyone can get together for a bitch slap party on the Sheld Wall until it gets Nuked!

Thommy8 wrote:

13) Leader Revival


You cant revive any leader until they are all in the tank (bar your main leader who you can revive whenever he is in the tank). Then, once per turn you revive, by paying Spice, a Leader. If they die for a second time they go to the back of the queue and can only be revived when all the first dead lot are out. We have a face up and face down stack, and we flip the face down stack over when the all first lot have been revived.

I agree that this is about as clear as mud in the AH rules.

Thommy8 wrote:

14) Battles


There are occasions when a player will gamble everything to dislodge a Faction and the site may become empty of all the Tokens in conflict. This would leave the region empty, or hand it to a third faction residing there (who had not yet fought).

Dialling is yet another bluff tactic. I could commit one troop and try to poison the Leader or try to bluf them into committing lots of troops to a battle. Playing will explain more.

Thommy8 wrote:

15) Additional Character Advantages:


I don't think Dune is worth playing without them. The Kwisatz Haderach is only a bonus - it is easily ignored (all it does is give immunity to Turning Traitor and +2 to fighting Strength once per round). Beware that Bene Gesserit Coexistance is hard to play well - let the most experienced player (i.e. YOU) be them!

Thommy8 wrote:

16) Longer Game: How long? alliances 2 players maximum? increasing number of strongholds?


Regular games are 4 hours or up! Longer if it goes 15 round. Start early! Restrict alliances to 3 players max, do not use the expansions and play to the normal Stronghold winning conditions. Extra locations will shorten a game unless you increase the winning number as you will not have troops enough troops to take and defend them.

Thommy8 wrote:

17) Increased Spice Flow: Bonus for occupying Carthag, Arrakeen, and Tuek’s Sietch?


Good rule - do it! Reward them for holding strongpoints - if you want the Spice or ornothoptors - capture the site!

Thommy8 wrote:

18) Family Atomic card: destroys the shield wall “so that the Imperial Basin, Arrakeen and Carthag are no longer protected from the storm.”


Imperial Basin and the 2 Strongholds are immune to the Storm - No Shiels wall means the Storm ravages Imperial basin AND the 2 stronghold - time it well and you could clear out the area for an easy take over if you do it just ahead of the Storm- just stay on rock!

Thommy8 wrote:

19) Residual Poison card:


You do not have to play a REAL residual poison - just bluff it and get free Spice. Even if someone holds the real residual poison they aren't allowed to do anything to intervene. You could keep tapping them for Spice and all you'll lose is 4 or 5 if the call your bluff. Choose a player who can't afford to lose a Leader and rake it in.

Hope that helps.

CHRIS
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Matt Albritton
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Thommy8 wrote:

9) Spice Blow:

a) How do you decide in which longitudinal sector for Spice?


Each desert where spice can "blow" has a starred section. That is where the spice goes. You do not get to choose the section. Otherwise, this would hurt the Atreides' ability to get a jump on the future spice blow.
 
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First, thank you so much for taking the time to respond to all my question Chris. I really appreciate it! I definitely didn't expect someone to do that, and I know I went a little crazy with all my questions, so I was really very happy to see your post, and read through your suggestions. I'm sure they'll make my first game go much better.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Just don't. Dune is about a 4 hour plus game even when you know what you're doing. Keep it simple. Most people feel that the expansions add little to the game other than length and complication. For first time pay - NO!


Wow, I didn't realize it was at least 4 hours. The game page says 120 minutes, but I thought that seemed a little low. Perhaps I should submit a correction for that. I'll stick to the base game, thanks for the warning.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Without alliances, individual players need either 4 (2 player game) or 3 strongholds to win. With alliances of 2 the collective need 4 and with three all 5 must be controlled. In alliances of more than 4 its usually 5 plus the shield wall. there are also additional rules for using extra Strongholds to increase the game length (Habbanya Ridge etc.)


Alright, sounds good. I figured it had to be something like that, but it was odd that the winning conditions table in my rules only went up to 4 players when I wanted to play with 6 players, heh. So we'll play 3 strongholds for a solo win, 4 strongholds for a paired win, and 5 for large alliances to win.

Goldenturkey wrote:
I like the Leader 10 and see no reason to change it. To stop the moaners you could reduce the maximum to 8, but an unblocked poison or weapon will kill anyone and there are rules for effects brought about by the loss of your leader.


Alright, thanks, we'll use the Super Leaders then because they're the characters that everyone will be able to recognize, not sure if we'll keep them at 10 or 8, but probably just 10 since that's simpler, and no one has played before, so no one can whine about them being too powerful yet, heh.

Goldenturkey wrote:
This is not a majorly complex rule. they count for 2 units but ship as one. Remember that the starred emperor tokens only count as one against the Fremen


Alright, we'll throw in the starred tokens too, they seem like a good rule, and make sense thematically. That part about the Sardaukur not counting double against Fremen wasn't in my rules as far as I can recall, but it makes perfect sense, I'll try to remember it for the game. I'm beginning to see what people always say about thematic games needing more exceptions than pasted-on euros, heh.

Goldenturkey wrote:
I like some of them and play with them, but they can cause issues. A favourite and annoyingly over powered effect is to Cone of Silence the Treachery card bidding and if the Harkonnen player does it there is no catching them for the whole game as they just fill their hand with cards. Think about setting limits on some cards, but for the basic play i'd include them all. Make sure you have the complete 45 cards, many are often mentioned (kriminon and Zenobia drug) but never included in the collections. I'm not sure myself they actually exist!


Hmm, alright, yeah, some of the cards seem far more powerful than others, but I guess that's common in most games. I just hope I don't get stuck with too many of those totally worthless cards, bleh, although they do seem amusing.

Goldenturkey wrote:
I've played both and one gives an advantage to the Fremen the other is merely tactical. No preference - If you've got a Fremen player do it that way, otherwise revert to the 2 combat wheels.


Alright, glad to hear that both work well, it's a tough call, I wish we could try both, hehe, maybe we'll alternate between turns, making the game even more complex and confusing, nah, that would just be mean to the other players.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Player Dots are determined by who is sitting closest to each one around the table. They determine play order and disputes in timing and for aggressor status in conbat. Nothing complex here!


Alright, thanks, wasn't sure if each of the player dots belonged inherently to particular factions, like the one near the place where the Fremen must deply belonging to the Fremen or something, guess not.

Goldenturkey wrote:
a - No drawn opponnent leader? then you don't get one - very rare to draw 4 of your own faction - remember to remove the Leaders of factions not in play.


Yeah, I figured it must be pretty rare, let's hope it doesn't happen (especially to me).

Goldenturkey wrote:
b - Killed Leaders when revived still only betray you if you attack the player who hold hims as a tritor - make a note and attack with a different one - beware the Harkonnen can use their Traitors to betray the opponenet of an ally. Thus it is still worthwhile reviving all your Leaders unless you're playing 2 player, which is not adviasble.


Alright, that makes sense, I just hope I don't screw up and use my leader against the same person again after they've already betrayed me, that'd be embarassing.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Yep all Tokens and Spice are destroyed (half of Fremen rounded up are too) in all Sand regions. The Storm can move 6, yes people hang out in Stronghold - you need to to win and it destroys in the stop sector and every sector it passes through. Very messy - especially when you Family Atomics the Shield wall and let the Storm wipe out everything (muhahahahahahahah!!!!)


Wow, yeah, looks like a lot of the game will involve avoiding the Storm, but I suppose that makes sense, those sands can be pretty nasty I guess.

Goldenturkey wrote:
a - you may place Spice in any Sector you like as Territories are divided by Sectors. The same goes for Tokens. A territory may be separated by Storm thus stopping 2 armies fighting or a token group collecting Spice. Whoever draws the Spice card for the blow determines where to place the Spice - and it can be quite tactical.


Whoever draws the Spice card for the blow? Do you take turns drawing the spice card, rotating counter-clockwise like everything else? The poster below said to put the spice in the sector where the asterisk is, that's not how you play it too?

Goldenturkey wrote:
b - Enhanced Spice blow usually fuels the payment of Spice to power up units - We ignore both! They just complicate and add little to play. There would be more nexi and this could mess up alliances, you could do it just to get more Spice on the board. Most players will not break an alliance until it suits them, so lots of Nexi should have no effect on play.


Hmm, alright, it's good to understand that these rules come paired, so we should either do a double spice blow and paying spice for units in combat or do neither, not just one or the other. I guess those rules together do just complicate matters unnecessarily, maybe we'll just skip them for now.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Rules state all cards are returned to the top - we shuffle them back in to keep the flow of cards going. This also includes the card up for bidding. The Atreides player may chose to use Prescience and glance at each treachery card up for bidding. Whether he tells members of his Alliance what it was, or just laughs out loud when someone get Kulon is a matter of tact and taste.


Why would you have to shuffle the cards back in to keep the flow of cards going if the cards are all face down so no one knows what they are? I figure the bidding just stops because people run out of spice or their hands are all full, not because there's a bad card that clogs up the bidding? They are face down for bidding right?

Goldenturkey wrote:
Player Dots have no effect on where you land troops or start on the board. Yes the Fremen can swarm the board and get anywhere by about turn 3. Scary.


Scary indeed, seems very powerful, but I guess since everyone likes the game so much, it must be relatively balanced, even though you wouldn't necessarily know that just from reading the rules. I guess each faction just has very different approaches to trying to win the game, very interesting.

Goldenturkey wrote:
A token group is all the tokens in one stronghold or a territory. You may move one group of tokens once each turn - a group here being all or a fraction of the group in one place. I have 10 tokens in Tuek's Sietch. I move 5 out and leave 5 behind. My go ends! I could not then move 2 from Tuek's into another territory leaving 3 behind, that would be moving 2 token groups.


Alright, cool, so you can split up a group, moving some out, and leaving some behind. That makes much more sense. You just can't split up a group to send some one place and send some to another place. Thanks, that was one of my biggest points of confusion!

Goldenturkey wrote:
Tokens block movement if you cannot legally go there. Only 2 factions may exist in a Stronghold (ignoring Bene Gesserit coexistance), but any number of Factions may prepare to scrap on a sand or rock area. If Tuek's Sietch already has Atreides and Harkonnen in I can't move or land there. However, everyone can get together for a bitch slap party on the Sheld Wall until it gets Nuked!


Alright cool, I must have missed that more than 2 factions can exist on the sand or rock, I thought it was a limit of 2 in any territory, but limit of 2 just in strongholds makes sense. This should be interesting...

Goldenturkey wrote:
You cant revive any leader until they are all in the tank (bar your main leader who you can revive whenever he is in the tank). Then, once per turn you revive, by paying Spice, a Leader. If they die for a second time they go to the back of the queue and can only be revived when all the first dead lot are out. We have a face up and face down stack, and we flip the face down stack over when the all first lot have been revived.

I agree that this is about as clear as mud in the AH rules.


Thanks, I think it's beginning to make more sense, although leader revival is still one of the least clear parts of the game, not because it's super complicated, just because I can't fully envision how it will work, and what situations will come up in the game.

Goldenturkey wrote:
There are occasions when a player will gamble everything to dislodge a Faction and the site may become empty of all the Tokens in conflict. This would leave the region empty, or hand it to a third faction residing there (who had not yet fought).

Dialling is yet another bluff tactic. I could commit one troop and try to poison the Leader or try to bluf them into committing lots of troops to a battle. Playing will explain more.


Yeah, I guess I'll just have to play to get a feel for Battles because they seem strange now, but I get the gist, so hopefully it'll all make sense once I give it a try, thanks.

Goldenturkey wrote:
I don't think Dune is worth playing without them. The Kwisatz Haderach is only a bonus - it is easily ignored (all it does is give immunity to Turning Traitor and +2 to fighting Strength once per round). Beware that Bene Gesserit Coexistance is hard to play well - let the most experienced player (i.e. YOU) be them!


I'm not the most experienced, heh! I've never played before, actually none of us will have ever played before, so this should be an adventure. I guess I wouldn't mind being Bene Gesserit, would definitely prefer it over being Harkonnen. I'd be happy with Atreides, Fremen, or Bene Gesserit I guess, I'm sure I'll get one of the other three then.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Regular games are 4 hours or up! Longer if it goes 15 round. Start early! Restrict alliances to 3 players max, do not use the expansions and play to the normal Stronghold winning conditions. Extra locations will shorten a game unless you increase the winning number as you will not have troops enough troops to take and defend them.


Alright, thanks for the warning. I was expecting a 2-3 hour game, so it's good to know to expect more, I'll warn the other players, heh, let's hope it doesn't scare them off.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Good rule - do it! Reward them for holding strongpoints - if you want the Spice or ornothoptors - capture the site!


Alright, will do, thanks

Goldenturkey wrote:
Imperial Basin and the 2 Strongholds are immune to the Storm - No Shiels wall means the Storm ravages Imperial basin AND the 2 stronghold - time it well and you could clear out the area for an easy take over if you do it just ahead of the Storm- just stay on rock!


Hmm, how odd. I don't think there was anything in the rules about the Imperial Basin being immune from the storm in the beginning, since it is a sand space and all. But I guess that makes sense, just wish they'd mentioned it. So then it gets wiped out by the storm if Family Atomics is played... AND the strongholds too?! Wow, that seems like it'll make it very tough to hold all the strongholds then, huh, craziness!

Goldenturkey wrote:
You do not have to play a REAL residual poison - just bluff it and get free Spice. Even if someone holds the real residual poison they aren't allowed to do anything to intervene. You could keep tapping them for Spice and all you'll lose is 4 or 5 if the call your bluff. Choose a player who can't afford to lose a Leader and rake it in.


Hmm, I guess I'm just really bad at bluffing, but that does make sense about the other player maybe not being able to afford to lose a leader right then, but I dunno, I'm not one to succumb to bribes easily, so I think I'm going to refuse to pay and just take my chances, heh. It's not like the person has any incentive to ever take the card off if it's actually the real thing, so no sense paying forever, right?

Goldenturkey wrote:
Hope that helps.


Yes it does, very much, thank you!
 
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This game can be very quick with beginners devil

Watch out !!
 
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I think you misunderstood the question - He knows which territory to place the spice in, just is unsure which of the radiating slices of the board (Storm affected sectors) to spread the spice over or where to place it if the terriroty spans several storm sectors.

Hope that helps

CHRIS

Kubigaruma wrote:
Thommy8 wrote:

9) Spice Blow:

a) How do you decide in which longitudinal sector for Spice?


Each desert where spice can "blow" has a starred section. That is where the spice goes. You do not get to choose the section. Otherwise, this would hurt the Atreides' ability to get a jump on the future spice blow.
 
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Hi there. Thanks for the comments, I was more than happy to invest the time, your Friday night was getting close and as said I have been in exactly your position.

The poster above, I think (apologies if wrong) mis read the question, I'll try to expand

Thommy8 wrote:
Whoever draws the Spice card for the blow? Do you take turns drawing the spice card, rotating counter-clockwise like everything else? The poster below said to put the spice in the sector where the asterisk is, that's not how you play it too?


Yes all Spice from a blow is placed in an asterixed territory. But often a Territory will span several of the 'pie-slice' sectors in which the Storm has its effect. The 'first-player' (next Player dot on the board edge that the Storm could move past) draws the Spice card and places the Spice in any of the sectors over which the Territory (i.e. Meridian) spans. This means that the Storm could destroy some of the spice but not all of it as it may not have moved over all the sectors a territory spans. The Storm also separates token groups, and as you can't move through the STorm you may have to divide your Token groups in one territory until the storm passes if you move in from the other side of the storm to where your existing group is!

Thommy8 wrote:
Why would you have to shuffle the cards back in to keep the flow of cards going if the cards are all face down so no one knows what they are? I figure the bidding just stops because people run out of spice or their hands are all full, not because there's a bad card that clogs up the bidding? They are face down for bidding right?


The Atreides get to look and also if they are naff then you'll be stuck with a set of naff cards till they all get bought. I just like the idea of never knowing what was going to be there. Maybe it doesn't affect the game as much as I thought it did!

Thommy8 wrote:
Hmm, how odd. I don't think there was anything in the rules about the Imperial Basin being immune from the storm in the beginning, since it is a sand space and all. But I guess that makes sense, just wish they'd mentioned it. So then it gets wiped out by the storm if Family Atomics is played... AND the strongholds too?! Wow, that seems like it'll make it very tough to hold all the strongholds then, huh, craziness!


It is in there somewhere or on the player handout or in the expansions...or maybe I made it up!, no it is protected and that is unique in the game. Also the fact that Arakeen and Cathag get exposed when destroyed is just like the books and so matches the game theme. Its a good tactic so we use it!

I think my PDF of the new Dune update has been posted and I've made alot of effort to condense the rules for the main game - not all the extra stuff I'd never use - download it (it's big) and hack out my rules section. Its exactly the same 'helpful' comments as above (hehe) and once more with the Goldenturkey Mantra - I hope that helps!!

CHRIS
 
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Goldenturkey wrote:
I think you misunderstood the question - He know which territory to place the spice in, just is unsure which of the radiating slices of the board (Storm affected sectors) [...]


I'm pretty sure he is right.

Goldenturkey wrote:

you may place Spice in any Sector you like as Territories are divided by Sectors.


No, you can't pick the sector yourself. The asterisk indicates the 'spice sector'.

Kubigaruma wrote:
Each desert where spice can "blow" has a starred section. That is where the spice goes. You do not get to choose the section.


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Thommy8 wrote:

5) Weather: I am very torn over which method of controlling the movement of the storm to use. [...] the Fremen player draws a random storm movement marker from 1 to 6 [...] two players whose dots are nearest to the storm choose a number from 1 to 3 on their battle wheels


How about the following combination of both.

Immediately after a storm round, let those two players secretly pick their numbers, write them down, and hand them over to the Fremen player so that only she knows the actual value. The result is not revealed until the next storm round.


EDIT:

Goldenturkey wrote:

Yes all Spice from a blow is placed in an asterixed territory.


It's not the territory that is 'asterixed', it is its spice sector.
 
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I think this is a definition issue...to explain

A SECTOR is a long triangular area of the board reminiscent of a pie-slice. The STORM has its effect only in the area bounded by the SECTOR triangle.

A TERRITORY is a named irregular shaped region which can span several SECTORS. Thus Tokens in a region may be separated by a SECTOR in Storm yet be in the same TERRITORY. Thus placing Spice in a TERRITORY (which CAN ONLY contain a star/asterix) is decided by the Spice cards, but there is also a choice of which of the SECTOR(s) the TERRITORY spans in which the Spice can be placed. It would be tactical to place it further from the Storm so there would be a chance you could get to it before it was consumed.

For the benefit of the poster who is learning the game it is important we all check the use of terms and definitions.

The Atreides will know which TERRITORY the Spice will blow in, but the first player gets to decide which SECTOR of the TERRITORY the Spice appears in!

I hope that's clear to old and new

CHRIS

samoan_jo wrote:
Goldenturkey wrote:
I think you misunderstood the question - He know which territory to place the spice in, just is unsure which of the radiating slices of the board (Storm affected sectors) [...]


I'm pretty sure he is right.

Goldenturkey wrote:

you may place Spice in any Sector you like as Territories are divided by Sectors.


No, you can't pick the sector yourself. The asterisk indicates the 'spice sector'.

Kubigaruma wrote:
Each desert where spice can "blow" has a starred section. That is where the spice goes. You do not get to choose the section.


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Just checked the AH rules..

"The map contains four types of territories, sand, rock, stronghold and polar sink.
The map is also divided by longitudinal lines into 18 sectors which extend from the edge of the Polar Sink to the horizon"

but after that is clearly states that the Spice is placed in the Asterixed sector of the territory.

This a rule i have overlooked and stand corrected on!

Looks like version 1.2 of the PDF may come sooner that later

CHRIS
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Goldenturkey wrote:

A SECTOR is a long triangular area of the board reminiscent of a pie-slice. The STORM has its effect only in the area bounded by the SECTOR triangle.


Yes.

Goldenturkey wrote:

A TERRITORY is a named irregular shaped region which can span several SECTORS.


Yes.

Goldenturkey wrote:

Thus placing Spice in a TERRITORY (which CAN ONLY contain a star/asterix) is decided by the Spice cards, but there is also a choice of which of the SECTOR(s) the TERRITORY spans in which the Spice can be placed.


No.

The spice card states which TERRITORY is affected.

Furthermore, the asterisk indicates, which SECTOR of that TERRITORY is affected.
 
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chowing down on humble pie as we speak! yuk

CHRIS
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Goldenturkey wrote:
chowing down on humble pie as we speak!


I had to look that up
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Ooooh you Sneak!!devildevildevil

samoan_jo wrote:
Goldenturkey wrote:
chowing down on humble pie as we speak!


I had to look that up
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1) Been answered
2) I don't like using them. I believe the game plays better without them.
3) Use the starred tokens as they bring a lot to the game, but only use them after you have played a time or two.
4) Stay away from mixing the expansions with the base game. It plays well and is balanced without them. Adding them without the entire expansion has the potential of skewing the game.
5) Using the Feeeman's power with the weather makes them more enjoyable to play, but you should play the game a time or two before you use the additional powers.
6) answered
7) If you get all your own leaders, consider it a blessing. Your leaders you don't see are leaders that might be traitors. The more of your own in your hand, the more versatile your battle plan can be.
8) answered
9b) I would suggest using one card on your first play of the game. This will make the individual player powers stand out a little bit more and the game will not have too much spice. Once you get the feel of the game, adding the double spice blow works.
10) answered
11) Just in case- it's probably not a good idea to bring all Freeman tokens onto the board at one time.
12) answered
13) answered
14) answered
15) I think you should probably not include the additional character advantages in your first game. Get the feel of the game and how each power works, then add the advanced and optional rules.
16) answered
17) Stick with the basic game first go, then add the extra spice and movement rules in later games.
18) answered
19) answered

I think that Dune is an excellent game, but to truly have an understanding of the individual powers I think you should start with the basic game. Once you get a feel for how the basic game works and the way each power can influence the game at different times, play an "advanced rules" game. After a few plays using them, add the "optional rules".
Some Avalon Hill games were designed to introduce the game and then pour on the flavor. This is one of those games. It is dense and requires a few plays at the basic level so that bringing in the other elements of play in later games allows for the maximum utilization of these advanced play rules. I know from experience that starting with advanced rules in this game (without understanding the nuances of the basic game)will create some lopsided situations and allow the stronger powers to dominate the game while the powers that require finesse and duplicity will be left in the dust.
I hope you follow up with a session report.
 
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If you invite me, I'd explain the game and get everyone up and running.

I haven't gotten this on the table in a while, I'd love to get in a game.
 
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Thanks for everyone's replies to my questions. We played the game on Friday (February 2) and I'm already looking forward to trying it again soon!

I was the Fremen, and got totally crushed, but it sure was interesting. The game actually only lasted 4 turns, at which point the Guild and Imperial alliance won by controlling all of the sietches except Sietch Tabr, which the Harkonnens had. On the first turn, the Harkonnen and Atreides pretty much obliterated each other in Arrakeen. I as the Fremen stupidly deployed too many troops, and spread them very thin across the map, thinking this would allow me to pick up spice in more different territories, but it left me very vulnerable. I attacked the Atreides in the Pasty Mesa and lost, was attached by the Harkonnen in Sietch Tabr and lost, and was attacked by the Guild in False Wall South and lost. The Imperial landed Sardaukur in Carthag and dominated it from start to finish. One of my problems was that the spice kept showing up in the East, where I had no chance to get it, and by the second turn, the Guild and Imperial forces had a ridiculous amount of spice.

On the third turn, the Guild, Imperial, and Harkonnen formed a three-way alliance during the Nexus, and the Harkonnen played a Cone of Silence on the rest of us, preventing the Fremen, Bene Gesserit, and Atreides from either allying or buying any treachery cards that turn. The three-way alliance almost managed to win on the 3rd turn, but couldn't quite, I forget exactly where they fell short.

But on the fourth turn, another Nexus came up, and the Guild/Imperial decided to kick out the Harkonnen, and was able to easily win by capturing 4 sietches that turn. I'm not quite sure what the rest of us did wrong, but the Guild/Imperial alliance seemed pretty unstoppable at that point. Perhaps it had to do with the fact that the Harkonnen and Atreides had wiped each other out at the very beginning, and I had spread my forces very thin, plus the Bene Gesserit couldn't really do much. Another factor may have been that all 4 of us did not have a single traitor leader of the Guild or Imperial, but rather had almost all coincidentally picked Bene Gesserit traitors.

Anyway, it was an interesting game, and I look forward to trying again. Thanks for all your help with my questions, I really appreciate it!
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Also Tom, you forget to mention that I, as the guild, totally blew an opportunity for a solo victory on turn 2 when I chose to attack you for some reason.

I'm looking forward to playing this again as well, hopefully now that we understand the rules and their implications a bit better it won't end on turn 4.
 
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Thommy8 wrote:
7) Traitors:

a) If you happen to not draw a single leader disc belonging to an opponent then do you not get to have a traitor, or do you get to draw again? It would seem pretty sad to not get a traitor, but it would also seem pretty unlikely. Has it ever happened to anyone, and did it really negatively affect the game?


My two cents: If you draw all of your own leaders, you won't get a traitor in your pay. However, this does mean that no one else drew most of your leaders. Knowing this and safely playing leaders is as big of an advantage.
 
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Thommy8 wrote:
I’m particularly intrigued by the optional houses (Lansraad, Bene Tleilax, and Ix), but figure it’s probably best to stick with the original six for this time, right?


I've never played them, but I'd certainly stick.

1) The rules that come with the game say nothing about changing the number of strongholds based on alliances.

2) Super Leaders: We use them. Just tell people to be VERY careful with them.

3) I'd use them. We've pretty much always used all optional rules, no Advanced Rules. I think we played Advanced once and I'd like to do more of that.

Remember Sardaukar don't work against Fedeykin.

4) Expansion treachery cards: They're fun. We've had no great problem with them. My English editions have lighter backs, so we have to cover a face-down residual to help with bluffing usually.

5) Weather: Let the Fremen have their ability. Letting players choose doesn't add that much to the game.

6) Player Dots: Just randomly based on where everyone happens to sit.

7) Traitors:

a) We interpreted the rules maybe too strictly for years without doubting them...we included ALL leaders when selecting for traitors, even those not being played. So we had lots of games with people not getting a traitor. How many factions employed traitors in the books? I just read the first book and remember the Harkonnen, but for flavor that seemed to work and we always loved the game. Didn't seem to break it to us, but I can see it being less random the way most seem to play it...with just the played factions' leaders in the bag.

b) Yes, Yes.

8) Anything it passes over. 3.5 is the average movement. It does cause death, but there is resurrection. It's a long game for many reasons.

10) Even the one up for bid is put back. Atreides get to see, of course.

11) Yes x 4.

12) "any number", the former interpretation.

I never noticed that the "tokens block movement" rule says "stronghold", but I checked it and you're right. We've played dozens of games as if it said "territory". I would have thought "stronghold" might have been a typo, but Rule X.C.8 even supports "stronghold".

13) One leader per turn, revive the set once each before reviving a leader a second time.

16) The length of the game is highly variable. I've seen it last 30 minutes and I've seen it last for 6 hours or more.

17) I use all optional rules. If anyone has "too much" advantage due to them, others should band together to help overcome these perceived advantages.

18) Imperial Basin storm exception: VI.C. (in parentheses)

19)
Quote:
Residual Poison card: I don’t understand why the person who has this card played on them wouldn’t always challenge it immediately and just lose the leader right away?

Because they have the spice to pay and leaders are very valuable.

Quote:
If the person playing the card is actually the playing the correct card then they have no incentive to retract it ever, and will just keep taking the 1 to 4 spice bribe forever, right?


Yes, unless they've since allied with the poisoned player.

Quote:
If the person playing the card is bluffing then you might as well get the 3x penalty then?


Yes, if you know they're bluffing.

Quote:
So why would anyone ever bluff a residual poison card, it seems like a mistake, and why actually pay the bribe, if they can just keep the bribe out there forever?


Because you might not need the leader as bad later or you might be able to more afford the spice than the loss of the leader.
 
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