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1960: The Making of the President» Forums » General

Subject: So let's hear something!! rss

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Sean Franco
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If you could touch the alien sand and hear the cries of strange birds and watch them wheel in another sky, would that satisfy you?
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Alright, Twilight Struggle rocked, and it rocked hard. So how will this fair?



Modified area control? Or what exactly?

My group is looking forward to it. One of the guys is already simply calling it "The Nixon Game." I suppose there are those Nixon fans out there.
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I'm anxious as well to see what this one's about, as I love TS. I'm expecting it to be VERY similar, but new events. That photo sure looks like competing influence...
 
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Mike Silbey
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If this game was just a faster playing rethemed Twilight Struggle I would be overjoyed. I think it will be somewhat different though.

The cards seem to have a bit more going on. From the playtest image: there is event text, a number in the lower right hand corner (maybe ops value), what appear to be little 6-sided dice symbols adjacent to it (maybe for a version of realignment in this game?), a symbol I can't decipher in the lower left, a State and little republican/democrat symbols (maybe to show which side has the associated event?).

The board in the playtest image has little state seal tokens in each state. That's new and pretty cool looking.

I'm hungry for more information.
 
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Jason Matthews
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Hey guys, thanks for the interest. Here's a bit of detail for TS fans.

First, the deck complexity is way slimmed down. There is one deck and every card is basically use it or lose it. There is an event or two that allows you to go fishing, but that's it. There are no "underlined" or starred events. The longest impact is through the turn. So, this is all greatly streamlined from TS.

Secondly, the "play your opponent's event for ops and trigger event" has a new and distinguishing wrinkle. Its called momentum. You earn momentum by dominating the three major issues of the time (Defense, Economy and Civil Rights). The momentum points basically allow you to control events. Now, if I play an event for ops that is either my opponents OR both players, he can trigger it by spending a momentum point. On the other hand, I can block implementation of the event by spending 2 momentum points. As you can imagine this puts an important premium on earning momentum.

In this game we also have kind of a reverse Space Race. You bury 1 of your 6 cards every turn for use on the turn 6 debate round. One of the symbols that you see on the bottom of the card determines the issue that the card pertains to during the debate round. The bad thing is, you also need to have good cards in the debate So, you now have a choice: short term gain of tossing out a card without spending precious momentum, or prepare and do well in the debates. If you play one of your opponent's cards in the debates, it counts for them and not you.

The general game play is simply trying to be ahead in influence in a state on election day. If you are 1 point ahead, you win the state and all of its electoral points.

The map is divided into regions. Many cards have regional affects, and to cross regions to place cubes costs one additional campaign point. When you are 4 points ahead of your opponent in a state, you are said to be carrying it, and campaigning for your opponent gets harder. This problem can be modified by an advertising advantage.

This game is 90 minutes to 2 hours. TS was more like 2 to 3. ZMAN is publishing it and it will have Euro quality components. While there are obvious TS influences, and anyone who has played TS will understand the basic mechanics of the game, it has a totally different feel. You really have to implement a master plan and pursue it. The scoring cards do not tell you where to go. Also, the game will always go the full 9 turns, so there is no sudden death.

That said, the events can still be dramatic. We have a cool balancing mechanism for card quality called "rest." If you get a hand of all 2s, you will get more rest points -- these are points that go into a draw bag that act as the randomizer for the game. There are no dice. So, essentially, if your cards are crappy, your "dice" will be better. This can have important impacts on things like the final election day push, turn order (which can be vital), and advertising.

Anyway, I hope that gives you some sense of what we are up to.

Jason
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Justin
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jason, this sounds fantastic. thanks for the update!
 
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Christian Leonhard
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JasonMatthews wrote:
There are no "underlined" or starred events. The longest impact is through the turn.

A small correction here: there are actually a few cards that do have a permanent effect. You can just barely see an example of one in one of the photos; it's the "Harvard Brain Trust" card with the dark border around the event text. They fall into three categories: cards that modify the debates, cards that affect the scoring of certain states on election day, and cards that prevent other cards from being played subsequently. It's rare that you'll have more than a couple of these come into play, however, and there are designated spots along the edge of the board where they are placed, so they tend to be a lot easier to keep track of than the permanent event cards in TS.
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Jason Matthews
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D'oh forgot about the election day and debate cards. Well OK, there are a couple of long term affects, but they are handled effortlessly and have spaces on the board, so there is no confusion or chit stuff as in TS.

Example one of why Chris should do all the talking.

Jason
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Zev Shlasinger
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I will say that we have the very talented Josh Cappel doing the graphic design (he did Gheos and the not-yet released Dragon Parade).

But since this game is many months from release we don't have anything to show. Josh is busy doing a couple of other games for me then will work full bore on 1960.

As soon as we have a draft of the rules we are happy with (all layed out and whatnot) it will be posted, along with any finished graphics.

We are very excited by this game.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com
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Douglas S
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Looks like a great game. You can even have a Gore vs Bush 2000 expansion, eh?

That's the only other election closer than this one was


be well!

-Doug
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Nixon in 1960!!!
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Mike Silbey
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I'm also very excited about this game.

Thank you, designers, for spending the time to give us some information.
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Jim Carvin
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Thanks for the info fellas, I'm really looking forward to this release. During the Kerry/Bush Presidential election I was looking for a really good election game, I never found it.
 
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Christian Leonhard
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jcarvin wrote:
During the Kerry/Bush Presidential election I was looking for a really good election game, I never found it.
I think it was pretty much exactly the same feeling that led Jason and I to develop this game. We're both huge fans of election sims, both as boardgames and in computerized forms, but neither of us have ever found anything that seemed quite right. I do actually like the old Mr President game quite a bit, although it's a lot more abstract than what I've been looking for. Hopefully 1960 will hit the mark for you.
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(ron lee)
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Christian, Jason, I had no idea! It sounds terrific! When does the Ralph Nader expansion come out??

ps. Your matching avatars are soooo cute!
 
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Jason Matthews
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Ron wrote:

ps. Your matching avatars are soooo cute!

Alright buddy, let's not forget who traded Bohnanza beans for "intimacy" around here.

Jason
 
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Christian Leonhard
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ronlee wrote:
When does the Ralph Nader expansion come out??
That's in the pipeline right after the Kodos vs Kang edition of the game.
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Preston Fuller
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The very first time I played TS I thought, "wow, this would make a great mechanic for an election style game." So, glad to see that is happening.

I love TS and was wondering what Jason's sophmore project wold be. I am happy to see two things. One that you chose a historical election over a modern one Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore as that would have been tway to charged and probably made no one happy.

Second, I am thrilled to see that the basic mechanics of TS is there but that the game is different at the same time.

Nice job on getting the artist fron Gheos on the job. TS is my "big game" find of the year. Gheos is my "filler" find of the year.

Good luck and I look forward to this.
 
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Preston Fuller
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What is the plan for handeling the whole Alabama and Sen. Byrd Votes?
 
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Christian Leonhard
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Prestonisnormal wrote:
What is the plan for handeling the whole Alabama and Sen. Byrd Votes?

There are events representing both Byrd and the unpledged electors who threw their votes to him, the effect of which can deny Kennedy a few specific states. In fact, an example of this can be seen in the session report I posted a couple of days ago, where all three affected states went to Byrd. It's not possible to split a state's electoral votes, as happened in Alabama, though; it's an all or nothing proposition.
 
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Dick Butler
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Zman wrote:
I will say that we have the very talented Josh Cappel doing the graphic design (he did Gheos and the not-yet released Dragon Parade).

But since this game is many months from release we don't have anything to show. Josh is busy doing a couple of other games for me then will work full bore on 1960.

As soon as we have a draft of the rules we are happy with (all layed out and whatnot) it will be posted, along with any finished graphics.

We are very excited by this game.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com


How many months? Will it be this summer? this fall? Christmas? early 2008? Sems like others besides me are champing at the bit to get this one.
 
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David Wilson
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close elections
Actually, the election with Rutherford B. Hayes was the closest in history and to date we still don't know who won. Multiple states reported conflicting tallies of the popular vote and it quickly became apparent that there was tons of voter fraud occuring by both parties. Eventually it was given to the Congress to determine the actual winner. The committee ended up with 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats after a member of the Greenback party (who was a former Republican) resigned. As they voted state by state the Republicans won each time.

Rather than contest the election, the Republicans made two promises- only one of which was kept..

When Hayes came into office he issued a recall of Army troops and began ceasing Army occupation of the defeated Southern states (that was falsely called reconstruction, but turned out to be more of humiliation and oppression) beginning with Louisiana (if I recall correctly).. The other promise was to help fund a Southern based transcontinental railroad. This promise was fairly quickly forgotten.

The saying for years was that the Democrats had stolen the election, but the Republicans stole it back.

David "the preacher" Wilson
 
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Jason Matthews
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Quote:
Actually, the election with Rutherford B. Hayes was the closest in history and to date we still don't know who won. Multiple states reported conflicting tallies of the popular vote and it quickly became apparent that there was tons of voter fraud occuring by both parties. Eventually it was given to the Congress to determine the actual winner. The committee ended up with 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats after a member of the Greenback party (who was a former Republican) resigned. As they voted state by state the Republicans won each time.

Rather than contest the election, the Republicans made two promises- only one of which was kept..

When Hayes came into office he issued a recall of Army troops and began ceasing Army occupation of the defeated Southern states (that was falsely called reconstruction, but turned out to be more of humiliation and oppression) beginning with Louisiana (if I recall correctly).. The other promise was to help fund a Southern based transcontinental railroad. This promise was fairly quickly forgotten.

The saying for years was that the Democrats had stolen the election, but the Republicans stole it back.


Preacher, the closeness of the election of 1876 revolved around the electoral college. The popular vote was pretty much conceeded to Tilden. The election of 1960 was the opposite. The electoral college outcome was not that close. Its the popular vote that was on a razor's edge. Ordinarily, the popular vote is besides the point, but when you look at how close Texas AND Illinois were, you can see how a slight shift in the popular vote might have drastically altered the electoral vote. That's why 1960 remains one of the great elections in popular memory.

Now, as for your characterization of Reconstruction, I completely disagree. Your assertion here is either steeped in Southern lore, or unaffected by contemporary scholarship on Reconstruction. I can remember learning about Reconstruction in high school history. We were taught that "Radical Reconstructionists" in the North were undoing Liconln's vision. The impeachment of Pres. Johnson was just most obvious example of this lunatic fringe's obsession with revenge on the South.

I am paraphrasing here, but that was the jist of it. I now know that there was rather a concious effort to rewrite history in just this way. Having spent some time in Japan, it reminds me of the kind of historical revisionism that they commonly engage in. Their aim is to obfuscate their ancestor's crimes during the Second World War.

Given the enormity of the Civil War, Reconstruction must surely have been one of the mildest post-war occupations ever. I have yet to read of any great harship inflicted on Southerners other than pricks to their pride. Rather, Reconstruction was brought to an end so that the equality of blacks in the South could be brought to an end. To be honest, it should come as no surprise that such radical social upheavel would generate a backlash. Its also not surprising that this "counter-revolution" would actually overtake the aims of Reconstruction. But what followed the collapse of Reconstruction was a hundred years of shameful "humiliation and oppression." Only, you've got it wrong. It wasn't humilation for the white antebellum power structure. It was humiliation and oppression of the recently freed slaves. Some thoughtful people have characterized this as genocide. That may be too strong a term. But, the sad legacy of public lynchings, naked violence and psuedo-slavery thats typified the post-Reconstruction South until the Civil Rights movement should give anyone pause.

Its fitting that we should discuss this in the context of the Election of 1960, This election blazed a trail that would finnish the work of Reconstruction. The full meaning of the 14th Amendment is now felt in all states.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That's what the Civil Rights debate was all about.
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