Anthony Wilborn
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When revealing a guarded objective outside of the staging phase, does it still receive its "guard"?

Example: Abandoned tools and Narrow Paths quest card. Once the quest card receives a token it instructs you to look for Abandoned tools objective card in the encounter deck and add it to the staging area if able. Does adding it to the staging area come with resolving its guarded ability, i.e. revealing a card from the encounter deck to guard it?

Thanks!
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Danilo
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Yes, there is a FAQ about this.

(1.01) Encounter Keywords
Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be resolved any time the card on which they occur is revealed from the encounter deck, including during setup.


EDIT: Please consider the comment below of Robin with the Caleb clarification.
 
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Robin Munn

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But that raises another question: FAQ 1.22 states:

Quote:
“When Revealed” Effects
A card is only considered to be revealed if the card or game effect causing the card to enter play specifically uses a form of the word “reveal”.

Example: If the players use the Stage 3b “Don’t Leave the Path!” (CORE 121) quest card effect to search for a King Spider and put it into play, the “When Revealed” effect on the King Spider will not trigger, since the effect on “Don’t Leave the Path!” does not specifically use a form of the word “reveal.”


Since FAQ 1.01 specifically says "any time the card on which they occur is revealed from the encounter deck", and the text of Narrow Paths does not use the word "reveal", I would actually rule the other way. It's guarded if it's revealed normally (i.e., if it turns up during the staging step of questing). But if you find it via the text of Narrow Paths ("... and add it to the staging area"), then its Guarded keyword does not come into play.
 
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Luke Heineman
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Added to the staging area does not mean it's "revealed".

From the FAQ

Quote:
Triggered any time the card enters play (official FAQ).
Only resolve this keyword when drawn from the Encounter deck, not when a card with this keyword is placed back into the staging area.


This last part refers to the objective becoming unattached and returning to the staging area.

Quote:
Treachery is immediately resolved (if the relevant keywords are valid in the current phase) but not attached, Enemies and Locations remain attached until defeated (killed or explored) and still contribute their Threat. Enemies attached as guardians can still engage and be
engaged like any other enemy in the staging area. Once the attached card is defeated the card is no longer guarded unless it is revealed from the Encounter deck again and the keyword causes a new guardian to be attached. Although you apply any Surge keyword on the next card, only the first card drawn is attached to the original encounter card.


http://www.kaybee.org/kirk/LoTR_LCG_Cards_and_FAQs.pdf

so any time an objective ENTERS PLAY, you reveal a card to guard it.
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Tony Fanchi
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rmunn wrote:
But that raises another question: FAQ 1.22 states:

Quote:
“When Revealed” Effects
A card is only considered to be revealed if the card or game effect causing the card to enter play specifically uses a form of the word “reveal”.

Example: If the players use the Stage 3b “Don’t Leave the Path!” (CORE 121) quest card effect to search for a King Spider and put it into play, the “When Revealed” effect on the King Spider will not trigger, since the effect on “Don’t Leave the Path!” does not specifically use a form of the word “reveal.”


Since FAQ 1.01 specifically says "any time the card on which they occur is revealed from the encounter deck", and the text of Narrow Paths does not use the word "reveal", I would actually rule the other way. It's guarded if it's revealed normally (i.e., if it turns up during the staging step of questing). But if you find it via the text of Narrow Paths ("... and add it to the staging area"), then its Guarded keyword does not come into play.

Robin, I agree with your assessment, but the wording in the rulebook for the guarded keyword is a bit unclear. It says:

Rulebook p. 24 wrote:
The guarded keyword is a reminder on some objective
cards to reveal and attach the next card of the encounter
deck to the objective when it enters the staging area
from the encounter deck
, and place them both in the
staging area.

The bolded section could be interpreted a number of ways. I am inclined to read this as being a long way of saying "when the card is revealed", although the word "revealed" is never used. Subsequent FAQ entries regarding the guarded keyword seem to support this reading, including 1.01 posted by Danilo, which does use the word "revealed".

However, it could just as easily be argued that, whenever a card with the guarded keyword enters play "from the encounter deck", even when being searched for and added by a card effect, it should trigger the guarded keyword.
 
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Anthony Wilborn
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Surprisingly, I thought this had to have been definitively covered somewhere else and that I was just unable to find it, but it seems there is some gray area.

I think thematically I like the fact that "guarded" doesn't trigger upon being "added" to the staging area because, at least in the case of Narrow Paths, you quested and happen upon it. However, if it is revealed during staging, it happens upon you.

Although, not triggering is the easier way to play.
 
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Robin Munn

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AdmiralACF wrote:

Robin, I agree with your assessment, but the wording in the rulebook for the guarded keyword is a bit unclear. It says:

Rulebook p. 24 wrote:
The guarded keyword is a reminder on some objective
cards to reveal and attach the next card of the encounter
deck to the objective when it enters the staging area
from the encounter deck
, and place them both in the
staging area.

The bolded section could be interpreted a number of ways. I am inclined to read this as being a long way of saying "when the card is revealed", although the word "revealed" is never used. Subsequent FAQ entries regarding the guarded keyword seem to support this reading, including 1.01 posted by Danilo, which does use the word "revealed".


My reading of this whole thing is that the original rules for Guarded were indeed unclear, and that FAQ 1.01 was intended to clarify those rules. I.e., FAQ 1.01 should be read as "In that p. 24 section, strike the words "when it enters the staging area from the encounter deck" and replace them with the words "when the guarded card is revealed"."

And yes, as Anthony points out, this would lead to an easier time for the player, which would seem to contradict the "unofficial rule 0": whatever makes the player's life harder is the right way to read the rules. But in the specific case of the word "revealed", there are other cases that make it easier for the player: the Forest Spider example cited by the FAQ, for one. The Guarded keyword is, IMO, in the same category as the Forest Spider: it only applies when revealed (as per FAQ 1.01, which supercedes the unclear text on p. 24), and Narrow Paths only says "add to the staging area", not "reveal and add". (Just like how the quest stage from Flies and Spiders uses the text "add" rather than "reveal and add".)

... So it looks like there's pretty broad consensus here. If you find the Abandoned Tools lying in a corner of the Narrow Paths, then they're truly abandoned with nobody guarding them, and you can just pick them up.
 
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Robin Munn

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lukeheineman99 wrote:

http://www.kaybee.org/kirk/LoTR_LCG_Cards_and_FAQs.pdf

so any time an objective ENTERS PLAY, you reveal a card to guard it.


Hmm, I think the author of that unofficial FAQ actually got this one wrong. He says that any time a guarded objective ENTERS PLAY, a card is revealed to guard it. But the FAQ says any time it is REVEALED, which is more constraining than "enters play". I.e., this very situation, where you are instructed to "add" the card to the staging area, not to "reveal and add" it.

I see that Kirk Bauer, the author of that unofficial FAQ you linked, has included his email address in the FAQ. I'll email him and point him to this discussion so he can join in.
 
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Andrew Schoonmaker
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konicki wrote:
Surprisingly, I thought this had to have been definitively covered somewhere else and that I was just unable to find it, but it seems there is some gray area.

A similar thing has also come up in regards to Forest Grove in A Journey to Rhosgobel, and the consensus of the threads there seems to be that because the Athelas that you can fetch is not "revealed", its Guarded keyword does not trigger, e.g. the end of this thread. That might be what you were thinking of?
 
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Anthony Wilborn
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I agree... Adding the tools to the staging area without a guard indeed makes it feel like you've walked through the narrow path and stub your toe on the tools, whereas the tools coming out of the deck seem more like "that Orc has those tools on his belt, I could use those..."

 
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Chris M
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Here is what we know:

Quote:
(1.01) Encounter Keywords
Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be resolved any time the card on which they occur is revealed from the encounter deck, including during setup.



Core Set Rule Book:

Quote:
The guarded keyword is a reminder on some objective cards to reveal and attach the next card of the encounter deck to the objective when it enters the staging area from the encounter deck, and place them both in the staging area.


What do these two sections tell us?

Section 1.01 of the FAQ really tells us nothing here so it is irrelevant. It says you should resolve the Guarded keyword when the card is "revealed". We know that Abandoned Tools being fetched from the encounter deck is "added to the staging area" which is not "revealed". Thus, section 1.01 is not what we need.

However, the Core Set rule book is very clear here. It says "when the card enters the staging area". Because Narrow Paths requires you to add Abandoned Tools to the staging are, the "enters the staging area" effect will trigger and you will have to reveal the next card to satisfy the Guarded effect.
 
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Chris M
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rmunn wrote:
AdmiralACF wrote:

Robin, I agree with your assessment, but the wording in the rulebook for the guarded keyword is a bit unclear. It says:

Rulebook p. 24 wrote:
The guarded keyword is a reminder on some objective
cards to reveal and attach the next card of the encounter
deck to the objective when it enters the staging area
from the encounter deck
, and place them both in the
staging area.

The bolded section could be interpreted a number of ways. I am inclined to read this as being a long way of saying "when the card is revealed", although the word "revealed" is never used. Subsequent FAQ entries regarding the guarded keyword seem to support this reading, including 1.01 posted by Danilo, which does use the word "revealed".


My reading of this whole thing is that the original rules for Guarded were indeed unclear, and that FAQ 1.01 was intended to clarify those rules. I.e., FAQ 1.01 should be read as "In that p. 24 section, strike the words "when it enters the staging area from the encounter deck" and replace them with the words "when the guarded card is revealed"."

And yes, as Anthony points out, this would lead to an easier time for the player, which would seem to contradict the "unofficial rule 0": whatever makes the player's life harder is the right way to read the rules. But in the specific case of the word "revealed", there are other cases that make it easier for the player: the Forest Spider example cited by the FAQ, for one. The Guarded keyword is, IMO, in the same category as the Forest Spider: it only applies when revealed (as per FAQ 1.01, which supercedes the unclear text on p. 24), and Narrow Paths only says "add to the staging area", not "reveal and add". (Just like how the quest stage from Flies and Spiders uses the text "add" rather than "reveal and add".)

... So it looks like there's pretty broad consensus here. If you find the Abandoned Tools lying in a corner of the Narrow Paths, then they're truly abandoned with nobody guarding them, and you can just pick them up.


We currently have no official ruling stating that the rules on guarded should say "when it is revealed" instead of "when it enters the staging area".

The FAQ entry 1.01 is still true. You do resolve Guarded when you reveal the card because when you reveal it you place it in the staging area. This does not mean it can't also happen when it is added to the staging area (and not revealed).

The reason Doomed and Surge ONLY apply when they are "revealed" is because this is exactly how these two terms are defined in the Core Set rule book. Guarded is notably different in that it happens when it enters the staging area which can happen by being revealed or by simply being added to it.
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Robin Munn

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cmabr002 wrote:

We currently have no official ruling stating that the rules on guarded should say "when it is revealed" instead of "when it enters the staging area".


Actually, I just discovered that we do have an official ruling from Caleb Grace on this matter, but most people don't know about it because it was posted on a French-language forum:

http://sdajce.forumactif.org/t475p15-question-athelas-issu-d...

The question was about Athelas in the Journey to Rhosgobel quest: when it is placed in the staging area by Forest Grove ("Response: After the players explore Forest Grove, search the encounter deck and discard pile for 1 Athelas objective, and add it to the staging area. Then, shuffle the encounter deck"), does that trigger the Guarded keyword on Athelas or not? Caleb's official answer in the thread (which was in English):

Caleb Grace wrote:
Because the Athelas is not revealed when you trigger the Response of Forest Grove, you place an unguarded Athelas in the staging area.


The Abandoned Tools / Narrow Paths wording is pretty much identical: search the encounter deck and discard pile and add (Card Name) to the staging area. Therefore, by official ruling, the Guarded keyword on Abandoned Tools would not trigger when it is added by Narrow Paths.

(Credit for this answer really belongs to alogos in the http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1056508/unofficial-faq-compi... thread, whose unofficial FAQ contained a link to the French forum thread where I found this ruling.)
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Tony Fanchi
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Good catch, Robin. That seems to definitely tell us that Guarded triggers only on reveal.
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