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Subject: Rule 13.2 and eliminating German HQs rss

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William Hay
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The way I read rule 13.2 in the AH 2nd edition rules, if a face up German HQ is attacked and eliminated, the original side takes a step loss. Does that mean it is not removed from the board but flipped over and stays where it is? I recall somewhere reading that the face up HQ is eliminated and the face down side is returned as a reinforcement but I am currently unable to find this rule.
 
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James Cox
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alhay1959 wrote:
The way I read rule 13.2 in the AH 2nd edition rules, if a face up German HQ is attacked and eliminated, the original side takes a step loss. Does that mean it is not removed from the board but flipped over and stays where it is? I recall somewhere reading that the face up HQ is eliminated and the face down side is returned as a reinforcement but I am currently unable to find this rule.


Don't have it in front of me (packed away) but I do not remember any HQs having "two steps." Those HQs that are printed on both sides are actually two different incarnations of the same HQ. For example, there comes a time when Rommel left the fight, and was replaced by someone else. Or, Unit A is disbanded, transferred, or otherwise amalgamated into a new Unit Z.

In short, no HQ has "steps," plural. All HQ are one-step units.

Shorter: When a HQ takes a loss/is defeated it is permanently DEAD.
 
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Mattias Elfström
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Kukailimoku wrote:
alhay1959 wrote:
The way I read rule 13.2 in the AH 2nd edition rules, if a face up German HQ is attacked and eliminated, the original side takes a step loss. Does that mean it is not removed from the board but flipped over and stays where it is? I recall somewhere reading that the face up HQ is eliminated and the face down side is returned as a reinforcement but I am currently unable to find this rule.


Don't have it in front of me (packed away) but I do not remember any HQs having "two steps." Those HQs that are printed on both sides are actually two different incarnations of the same HQ. For example, there comes a time when Rommel left the fight, and was replaced by someone else. Or, Unit A is disbanded, transferred, or otherwise amalgamated into a new Unit Z.

In short, no HQ has "steps," plural. All HQ are one-step units.

Shorter: When a HQ takes a loss/is defeated it is permanently DEAD.

In my rulebook rule 13.2 makes it perfectly clear that some German HQs CAN take a combat loss (lose a step) and be inverted.

"13.2 Most German HQ units have two sides. Some of these are inverted according to the OB Chart. Others are inverted only if the original side takes a combat loss. ..."
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James Cox
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Mattias wrote:
Kukailimoku wrote:
alhay1959 wrote:
The way I read rule 13.2 in the AH 2nd edition rules, if a face up German HQ is attacked and eliminated, the original side takes a step loss. Does that mean it is not removed from the board but flipped over and stays where it is? I recall somewhere reading that the face up HQ is eliminated and the face down side is returned as a reinforcement but I am currently unable to find this rule.


Don't have it in front of me (packed away) but I do not remember any HQs having "two steps." Those HQs that are printed on both sides are actually two different incarnations of the same HQ. For example, there comes a time when Rommel left the fight, and was replaced by someone else. Or, Unit A is disbanded, transferred, or otherwise amalgamated into a new Unit Z.

In short, no HQ has "steps," plural. All HQ are one-step units.

Shorter: When a HQ takes a loss/is defeated it is permanently DEAD.

In my rulebook rule 13.2 makes it perfectly clear that some German HQs CAN take a combat loss (lose a step) and be inverted.

"13.2 Most German HQ units have two sides. Some of these are inverted according to the OB Chart. Others are inverted only if the original side takes a combat loss. ..."


Ha! I stand corrected. Thank you Mattias! +1
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Brian Herr
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The way I originally learned to play the game (1st edition), eliminated front-sides of German 2-sided HQs were added to the next game turn's (not player turn's) reinforcements. Since most of these would occur during the Allied player-turn, that meant that an HQ eliminated on Allied turn 10 would show up in Germany on German turn 11.

As I re-read 2nd edition (in front of me as I type this), the rule no longer specifies how they are returned; it simply says they are inverted. I can find no other references to this matter. But since the HQs are no longer on the board, that wording isn't very helpful. For my money, I will continue to use the 1st ed. ruling: The front side of a 2-sided HQ taking a step lost appears next game turn as a reinforcement.
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ian morris
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As I recall, if a two-sided HQ suffers a step loss it is inverted, but if it suffers a DE result, it is eliminated and doesn't return.

 
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Mattias Elfström
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The rule 13.2 continues:

"... On the turn HQs are inverted, they are removed from the board. On the next turn they re-enter as a normal reinforcement..."
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James Cox
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Mattias wrote:
The rule 13.2 continues:

"... On the turn HQs are inverted, they are removed from the board. On the next turn they re-enter as a normal reinforcement..."


Would such reinforcement be vulnerable to being pinched off due to air? (or does air only affect replacements - not reinforcements?)
(is this two-sided HQ thing only on German HQs? Does the Allies not have any two-sided HQs?
 
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James Cox
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If the two-sided HQ is depicted on the reinforcement chart with a flip-over time frame does it mean that it is really two, one-sided HQ printed on the same counter only to save printing, and that such a "two-sided" HQ is not in fact "two-sided" then?

If a HQ is two-sided but specified to later be flipped, does it get to suffer a step loss prior to that flip? I'd say not. I'd say it would be eliminated then re-appear in a future turn as specified with its opposite side "up".

What say us?

 
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Jim Eliason
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Ben Hur has it right. The 1st edition rule is that an eliminated HQ returns as a reinforcement flipped. If an HQ that is already flipped takes a loss it is permanently dead. This applies to all Allied HQs. The 2nd edition has an HQ that takes a loss flip in place. I prefer the 1st edition rule. The redeveloped PK's Fortress Europe uses the 1st edition approach, but adds flip sides to Allied HQs.
 
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James Cox
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jeliason wrote:
The redeveloped PK's Fortress Europe
???

Please elaborate...
 
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James Cox
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jeliason wrote:
Ben Hur has it right. The 1st edition rule is that an eliminated HQ returns as a reinforcement flipped. If an HQ that is already flipped takes a loss it is permanently dead. This applies to all Allied HQs. The 2nd edition has an HQ that takes a loss flip in place. I prefer the 1st edition rule. The redeveloped PK's Fortress Europe uses the 1st edition approach, but adds flip sides to Allied HQs.


Sorry to kill a dead horse but it sounds like we all are in violent agreement but stating it differently.

A two-sided HQ that is killed before its reverse is scheduled to appear is NOT flipped, it is eliminated.

But later on in the timeline when its flipped side is to be brought in, it is brought in (flipped) normally. If it is then killed, it is gone forever.
 
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