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Pandemic Legacy: Season 1» Forums » General

Subject: And then, suddenly... rss

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...Pandemic Legacy's impressive storming up the BGG ranks is halted. Or should I say thwarted? Looking at the ratings & reading some of the comments, it seems very much like people who have not even played the game yet (and have no intention to) are voting it down, hoping to (and succeeding in) slowing its speedy climb down.

[Non-game related spoiler]
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I myself have played 13 games so far, reached November and will probably finish the game tomorrow. It will have been a month and a half since we played our first Legacy game and it's been an addictive ride. I have had to restrain myself from rating the game because I want to see what's left of it first. If the game would still be playable as regular Pandemic with some stickers on the board after December - and I think it will be - my rating will be very close to a perfect 10 and I will ever more impatiently be waiting for Season 2.


So, what is it that makes people go out of their way trying to keep Twilight Struggle at number 1? Is it jealousy? Could it really be the principle of having a gaming experience that cannot be repeated (even though they themselves might own a couple of games they have not played more than 12 times)? Is it something else altogether?

Whatever the reason, it seems strange that one can vote for a game one has not played.
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Susan
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Keep the faith.

It will be #1.

Just a matter of time...
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Richie Freeman
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I heard people talking about this the other day as well - if it's true it's both bizarre and incredibly sad.
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Jesse Marzel
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AernoutMJC wrote:
...Pandemic Legacy's impressive storming up the BGG ranks is halted. Or should I say thwarted? Looking at the ratings & reading some of the comments, it seems very much like people who have not even played the game yet (and have no intention to) are voting it down, hoping to (and succeeding in) slowing its speedy climb down.

[Non-game related spoiler]
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I myself have played 13 games so far, reached November and will probably finish the game tomorrow. It will have been a month and a half since we played our first Legacy game and it's been an addictive ride. I have had to restrain myself from rating the game because I want to see what's left of it first. If the game would still be playable as regular Pandemic with some stickers on the board after December - and I think it will be - my rating will be very close to a perfect 10 and I will ever more impatiently be waiting for Season 2.


So, what is it that makes people go out of their way trying to keep Twilight Struggle at number 1? Is it jealousy? Could it really be the principle of having a gaming experience that cannot be repeated (even though they themselves might own a couple of games they have not played more than 12 times)? Is it something else altogether?

Whatever the reason, it seems strange that one can vote for a game one has not played.


It's not a good game, and I don't want new-comers to think this is as good as it gets.

I've yet to rate it, we are still at july; I'm not having a bad time, but it's not the divine revelation people are making it to be. Most of the excitement seem to stem from the way the game surprises you and how it plays with the genre's conventions, but it's just fluff. As a set of rules, its a little boring. I'd really like this to take it's rightful place somewhere at the 200's ranking.
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Clyde W
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If you like risk management, this game is your jam. I prefer mechanisms that allow me to interact with other players more.
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JoeNothin wrote:


It's not a good game


That's totally fair enough if you don't like the game, but there are obviously lots of people that would disagree. I've just looked at the ratings, and there are a number of people (many who haven't played the game) that are 'down voting' the game because they don't like it being so high on the list - that's what I find strange.
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Jesse Marzel
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Cardboard Conundrum wrote:
JoeNothin wrote:


It's not a good game


That's totally fair enough if you don't like the game, but there are obviously lots of people that would disagree. I've just looked at the ratings, and there are a number of people (many who haven't played the game) that are 'down voting' the game because they don't like it being so high on the list - that's what I find strange.


I'll never downvote a game I didn't play, but I am really bummed about PL ranking this high. It'd not the #1 game of all time, and seeing it ranked so high makes me doubt the entire ranking system.

There's something really messed up about how fast it rose in the ranks. I don't understand it at all.
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Jacovis
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If you required them to say they had played it they would just lie about that as well.

Besides that, there are plenty of haters hitting up the Twilight Struggle ratings as well. It is all very petty and ridiculous, No matter whose opinion it is.

Also, even if PL makes it to #1, I highly doubt it will hold the spot for as long as TS: too much going on with new games and rankings to let it stay there for that long, and the shininess will wear off.

Legacy systems are just a gimmick that will wear off as well, over time, as they don't fundamentally bring anything new to game design as a whole, just rework existing designs. Unlike TS, which helped rejuvenate the card driven game mechanic at least.






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Aaron Morgan
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JoeNothin wrote:
It'd not the #1 game of all time


The BGG rankings aren't about the "#x of all time". They're the best-rated games according to the BGG users who care to add their rating.

Quote:
and seeing it ranked so high makes me doubt the entire ranking system.


Working as intended (minus the users who are trying to "game" the results).
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Jacovis wrote:
Legacy systems are just a gimmick that will wear off as well, over time, as they don't fundamentally bring anything new to game design as a whole, just rework existing designs.

The novelty will wear off, sure, but plenty of people feel it brings something new to game design.

I was intrigued by Risk Legacy, but not interested enough to seek it out and try it. With Pandemic Legacy I was perhaps over-eager: it looked like an idea so good it couldn't live up to expectations. So I waited for some reviews and ratings to roll in before I bought a copy.

Do I think it's the best game I own? No. Am I invested in it becoming #1? No. But I'm not outraged at the thought there might be thousands of people who like it even more than I do.
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JoeNothin wrote:
It's not the #1 game of all time, and seeing it ranked so high makes me doubt the entire ranking system.


That's how I felt when Puerto Rico was #1...
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The main this is that there are a lot of people who do enjoy this game. Are happy with their purchase and love playing it.

The numbers will settle down in the long run.
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JoeNothin wrote:

I'll never downvote a game I didn't play, but I am really bummed about PL ranking this high. It'd not the #1 game of all time, and seeing it ranked so high makes me doubt the entire ranking system.

There's something really messed up about how fast it rose in the ranks. I don't understand it at all.


Why should it bother you? It neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg.

TS was basically hard to find/out of print. People had it, had rated it, and that was that.

P:L came out and was, and is, widely available. It reached and passed critical mass to have its BGG score become close to its average rating fairly quickly. And the average rating is MUCH higher than any other game. There are a LOT of people ranking it 9 or 10.

The kicker is that a lot of people (myself, for example) were intrigued enough to get it recently when the excitement combined with various sale prices <= $40. Basically, it should see (and I think has seen) a surge of people ranking it who have now tried it.

And there is a very strong "cult of the new" tendency on BGG. People try new things, like them, rate them highly. Some of those people review their rankings and adjust them over time; many do not. Consider: how many of the top 25 or 50 games here were not even released before 2010? There is a resurgence of gaming lately, but not enough to push so many classics out - I really doubt that many new games are better than that many old ones. But that's how the ranking works. (*shrug*)

If one of my favorite games kept getting dropped by games that I had tried and thought were inferior, that might bum me - it might suggest I'm missing some flaw about it, for example. But a single game getting popular shouldn't bum anyone out; it doesn't suggest anything about your favorites.
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EitherOrlok wrote:
JoeNothin wrote:
It'd not the #1 game of all time


The BGG rankings aren't about the "#x of all time". They're the best-rated games according to the BGG users who care to add their rating.

Quote:
and seeing it ranked so high makes me doubt the entire ranking system.


Working as intended (minus the users who are trying to "game" the results).


This should be copied and pasted into every thread on this subject.
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Ben Finkel
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Reminds me of when Netrunner tried to touch the heavens. I still have no idea how Twilight Struggle made its way there.
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JoeyNine
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Perhaps we should leave Rank 1 blank and start at Rank 2. Make everyone equally unhappy.
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AernoutMJC wrote:
...Pandemic Legacy's impressive storming up the BGG ranks is halted. Or should I say thwarted? Looking at the ratings & reading some of the comments, it seems very much like people who have not even played the game yet (and have no intention to) are voting it down, hoping to (and succeeding in) slowing its speedy climb down.

[Non-game related spoiler]
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I myself have played 13 games so far, reached November and will probably finish the game tomorrow. It will have been a month and a half since we played our first Legacy game and it's been an addictive ride. I have had to restrain myself from rating the game because I want to see what's left of it first. If the game would still be playable as regular Pandemic with some stickers on the board after December - and I think it will be - my rating will be very close to a perfect 10 and I will ever more impatiently be waiting for Season 2.


So, what is it that makes people go out of their way trying to keep Twilight Struggle at number 1? Is it jealousy? Could it really be the principle of having a gaming experience that cannot be repeated (even though they themselves might own a couple of games they have not played more than 12 times)? Is it something else altogether?

Whatever the reason, it seems strange that one can vote for a game one has not played.


I was alerted to the impending rating war from a post over on the Facebook boardgame group a few weeks back, so I've been observing the rise and fall of both PL and TS.

Essentially, the same thing happened when Agricola started rising unusually fast. The war that broke out was the fans that wanted Agricola to be #1 started 1 rating the few games at the top to hasten its climb.

Once Agricola got near the top, a larger pool of BBG users who did not like the rating manipulation counter-1'd Agricola, and Agricola ended up dropping much faster than Puerto Rico did.

Twilight Struggle has been out nearly a decade. A few weeks ago it's rating started dropping rather quickly for a game that had been out a long time and rated by a large pool of people. As TS dropped, people who didn't like the manipulation started counter 1'ing Pandemic Legacy ... a larger pool of users participated in the counter, dropping Pandemic.

Going through again, TS has gotten almost 50 1's in the last three weeks. I'm impressed though that number has dropped (cooler heads prevailing?). Last week it was over 60 ... although it looks like there are a number of 2 ratings that have also appeared recently.

Looking at Pandemic Legacy, there are now a whole slew of 1's this week that were not there last week. So in my meager opinion, this "war" is following the exact same pattern the Puerto Rico/Agricola followed.

Another user above was right about the cult of the new. A number of good games have an initial ratings boost as people already pre-disposed to being enthusiastic about a game adopt early and give it glowing reviews (Netrunner anyone?).

Over time, the less enthused become exposed. Some of those will become huge fans, others will be less impressed.

Early moves toward the top don't really say anything about a game other than it was successful in attracting its core audience.

I'll be interested to see how this game shakes out 1-2 years down the road. The story provides an interesting diversion, but as some has said it's a one-trick pony. Once played you are left with Pandemic, which already has a very established baseline for what the general population here thinks about it.

It's petty nonsense that ratings wars happen, but one should be careful to note how both sides interacted to cause the current outcome rather than declaring one side totally innocent.
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JoeNothin wrote:


It's not a good game, and I don't want new-comers to think this is as good as it gets.


If YOU do not feel its a good game, then that is perfectly fine. Gaming tastes are actually quite different.

BUT if a majority of gamers votes this game high - why should it NOT be good for newcomers???


JoeNothin wrote:

I'd really like this to take it's rightful place somewhere at the 200's ranking.


What IS a rightful place of a game and who defines it?
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Michael Weber
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FuManchu wrote:

It's petty nonsense that ratings wars happen, but one should be careful to note how both sides interacted to cause the current outcome rather than declaring one side totally innocent.


Well spoken - there is no innocence at all in rating ANY game a "1" just because you want a DIFFERENT game to come out ahead of it. To me there is NO excuse to such a childish behavior.
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I think what people incorrectly asume about the ratings on BGG. It really is a popuality contest and less about what is the best game. But that is my opinion.
 
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Mixo wrote:
FuManchu wrote:

It's petty nonsense that ratings wars happen, but one should be careful to note how both sides interacted to cause the current outcome rather than declaring one side totally innocent.


Well spoken - there is no innocence at all in rating ANY game a "1" just because you want a DIFFERENT game to come out ahead of it. To me there is NO excuse to such a childish behavior.
#yolo
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clydeiii wrote:
Mixo wrote:
FuManchu wrote:

It's petty nonsense that ratings wars happen, but one should be careful to note how both sides interacted to cause the current outcome rather than declaring one side totally innocent.


Well spoken - there is no innocence at all in rating ANY game a "1" just because you want a DIFFERENT game to come out ahead of it. To me there is NO excuse to such a childish behavior.
#yolo

?
 
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JoeNothin wrote:


It's not a good game, and I don't want new-comers to think this is as good as it gets.


Right, those newcomers should be sticking to a 3 hour 2p only war game, or a heavy, deep euro.

If you are concerned about newcomers, pandemic legacy is a hell of a lot better game to sit at the top than what's currently there.
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eviljelloman wrote:
If you are concerned about newcomers, pandemic legacy is a hell of a lot better game to sit at the top than what's currently there.

Well, agreed. Though "better" isn't "good". I'd hesitate to recommend Pandemic Legacy to a newcomer, either.

Maybe it's time BGG had a "gateway game" ranking table, in the same way as family game, thematic game, etc.?
 
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eviljelloman wrote:
JoeNothin wrote:


It's not a good game, and I don't want new-comers to think this is as good as it gets.


Right, those newcomers should be sticking to a 3 hour 2p only war game, or a heavy, deep euro.

If you are concerned about newcomers, pandemic legacy is a hell of a lot better game to sit at the top than what's currently there.
No way. We can't have newcomers to this hobby be mislead and think it is all about cooperation. Board gaming is all about stabbing your friends in their back.
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