Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hinderance Question rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Hagrid
England
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does line of sight have to pass through an actual depiction of a tree for an orchard hex to count as hinderance? For example, on map 1 the LOS from hex N5 to K3 passes through 3 orchard hexes. But, it only goes through a tree in hex M5. So, is the hinderence one hex or three hexes?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Paul Sodusta
United States
Santa Barbara
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LoS checks have to actually go through the objects to count for Hindrances, Obstacles and Cover (hedgerows and walls). Hindrances and Covers do not stack. The highest values are chosen.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Hagrid wrote:
So, is the hinderence one hex or three hexes?


Hindrance will always be 1 hex - the highest hindrance in the LOS. Check examples G and J in the examples of Page 9.

Edit: I originally wrote:
The LOS merely has to go through the orchard to be hindered per 10.3.

Requiring that one "hits a tree" to be hindered is infering more into the rules than what the rules explicitly state.

but admit now that a shot must hit the physical depiction of a tree to be hindered. I suspect the density of such depictions on the map make it all but impossible to have a clean shot through the trees - so render the point moot at best.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ethan McKinney
United States
El Segundo
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Que?

Read 10.1:

"If the string touches the physical depiction of a terrain Obstacle or Hindrance in an intervening hex, that LOS is blocked [10.2] or hindered [10.3], respectively." [emphasis added]
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
I see physical depiction of the the orchard as the rectangular block of trees not as the individual trees. Therefore, if it goes through that block (even if between the trees) it is going through physical depiction of the orchard.

I suspect the discussion is moot. Looking at the image of Map 1 here on the geek:

I actually see the LOS hitting 2 trees. I also note that the center point of hexes is usually on/in a tree. In other words, there is enough tree density that I suspect almost all shots will hit a tree. Anyone have a valid example of a shot through an orchard missing all the trees?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ethan McKinney
United States
El Segundo
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
RPardoe wrote:
I see physical depiction of the the orchard as the rectangular block of trees not as the individual trees.

That's reading something into the rules that is not there. "Physical depiction" doesn't mean "fill in the area in your head." We should retain the distinction for clarity and consistency.

However, as you say, the point is probably moot, for orchards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
I will concede the point - LOS must hit a tree in the orchard to be hindered for consistency.

(Especially after I remember that one shoots between buildings also.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Udu Wudu
badge
Udu Wudu
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The LOS actually has to physically touch the hindrance/obstruction for it to count. The only exceptions are smoke and blaze chits, which are considered to fill the entire intervening hex in question.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Koens
United States
Watsonville
California
flag msg tools
badge
marks the spot.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
However, as you say, the point is probably moot, for orchards.


Except, of course, for 'orchard-road' hexes, where the orchard lines the road.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Xelvonar wrote:
where the orchard lines the road.

The rules for the road (T93) already cover this contigency. Still curious to know if there is a valid shot that goes through the depictions of the trees in orchard terrain and as such avoids orchard hindrance.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gregory Wong
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
The rules for the road (T93) already cover this contigency. Still curious to know if there is a valid shot that goes through the depictions of the trees in orchard terrain and as such avoids orchard hindrance.


I don't have my boards handy, so someone else should check this. Take a look at board #6, the one with all the buildings. There's a building with a one-hex courtyard in it. The courtyard has a circular road and a 4-tree orchard. Maybe there's a valid shot there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Jensen
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Still curious to know if there is a valid shot that goes through the depictions of the trees in orchard terrain and as such avoids orchard hindrance.


Sure. If a LOS hits an Orchard hex at an oblique angle and/or only close to its hexsides it can entirely miss every tree depiction in that hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Chad - I agree that if the shot skirts the outside of an orchard, it is not hindered. The original question was if a shot goes through the depicted orchard (trees to the left, trees to the right) and misses all the depicted trees - is the shot still hindered. Based on 10.1, I have agreed with others that such a shot is not hindered.

But looking at the typical orchard densities - I wondered if there was a real example of such a shot. Greg mentions the little orchard on the right of:

as a candidate. But even that little orchard has a tree on its center dot making such a clear shot difficult as that central tree helps block the obvious lines of sight.

So in the end - just a theoretical exercise to find a shot between two (or more) orchard trees that is through an orchard, but not hindered.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Harrisburg
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
On the picture above, hex B4 & D4 would NOT be hindered (the LOS goes directly down a hex spline between two orchard hexes.)

I think this would be a problem (ASCII art ahead):

/
O O O O/O O
/
O O O/O O O
/
O O/O O O O
/


Though I don't know if there are any such shots on any of CC's maps.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gregory Wong
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
But looking at the typical orchard densities - I wondered if there was a real example of such a shot. Greg mentions the little orchard on the right of:



as a candidate. But even that little orchard has a tree on its center dot making such a clear shot difficult as that central tree helps block the obvious lines of sight.


Thanks for including that pic. As I said, I didn't have the boards in front of me (I still don't). I didn't realize that center tree was there.

In the example illustrated with ASCII art, I think you can compute the slope of that line. Then you could figure out the relative positions
of two hexes that would generate such a slope. Then the hunt begins.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
saxophone wrote:
In the example illustrated with ASCII art, I think you can compute the slope of that line. Then you could figure out the relative positions of two hexes that would generate such a slope. Then the hunt begins.


The trees in the orchards are generally large enough that you can't actually follow such a line without hitting a tree.

I'm not absolutely sure that there's no LOS anywhere that slips between the trees, but I think it's pretty unlikely. If you go parallel to the lines of trees, then you don't pass through the center dots of any hexes, and if you don't, then I don't think the line actually fits between the trees.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
flag msg tools
"All history is made up. Good history is made up by good historians; bad history is made up by the others." -David Macaulay
badge
"We talked a little more of Milesians and Firbolgs; but I do not write what he told me here, as it is at variance with things I have written already, as is often the case with legend, whence comes a pleasing variety." -Lord Dunsany
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm not absolutely sure that there's no LOS anywhere that slips between the trees, but I think it's pretty unlikely. If you go parallel to the lines of trees, then you don't pass through the center dots of any hexes, and if you don't, then I don't think the line actually fits between the trees.

Except, as Richard pointed out above, something like D4 to B4.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sos1 wrote:
Except, as Richard pointed out above, something like D4 to B4.


Yes, of course. But that's not through an orchard hex; it's between two orchard hexes. The same thing can happen if there are woods in two adjacent hexes that don't connect, or buildings in two adjacent hexes that don't connect, etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Bryan
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
Map 9 has an example of clear LOS through an orchard hex. The hexes I'm thinking of aren't the typical 9-tree orchards; leading into objective #2 there's a diagonal row of orchard hexes with a road going through it. There is clear LOS, for example, from J6 to F8, right through the diagonal row.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
OK - that one goes up the road, and isn't quite what I am looking for. Using the image on the site here:



A hypothetical shot of the type I am looking for is: I5-C7 But on this map, the wall between H5-G6 blocks the LOS so the shot is moot. Another close (but not quite) example is a shot from E8-J8 which appears to just touch one of the trees.


PS - I like the trees on the hex spines between H5-H6 and H6-G5 to avoid a clean shot there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Bryan
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
Still on map 9, have a look at H10 to C1. LOS passes through one of the orchard/road hexes (G8) but does so orthogonal to the road, threading the needle between tree art. Let me see if I can link in a picture with a line to show what I mean.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.