Bart Keys
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So I play maximal effect to gain the benefit of improvisation 3 times.

If I have 3 cards in my hand do I have to discard all 3, or can I decide to discard less cards and only use the effect twice, saving a card to play later in my turn?

 
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George I.
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Bart_aus wrote:
So I play maximal effect to gain the benefit of improvisation 3 times.

If I have 3 cards in my hand do I have to discard all 3, or can I decide to discard less cards and only use the effect twice, saving a card to play later in my turn?

Maximal Effect reads: "Play the effect thrice/twice". So, you play the effect once, you fully resolve it, then you play it a second time.
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Bart Keys
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That does not clearly address the question.

Perhaps if I ask more questions it will get clearer.

Must I discard 3 cards on the minor effect maximal effect on improvisation?
Can I play minor play maximal effect on improvisation if I only have 1 card to discard?
Can I play minor play maximal effect on improvisation and choose to only play 2 discards?
 
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Gabriel Honore
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I don't see the point of playing minor maximal effect with only 1 card to discard.
Well ok if you wanted to throw away improvisation.

I would rule that you must play as much as you can, ie you can't chose not to play the 3rd effect if you have a 3rd card to discard.

I would rule that if you may play maximal effect and improvisation even if you don't have enough card to play the effect fully.
The left other effect is wasted.

Same may apply with blood of ancient, training, magic talent.
In some of these cases you may not know beforehand if you'll be able to play the effect fully or not, pending on the renewal of the offer.

I've seen a joke somewhere from someone who said the game would be just simpler without maximal effect and it should be removed, but it is Vlaada's favourite AA.
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Brian
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I agree with Gabriel, but I'd also be OK with not allowing it to be played.
 
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Seppel (BGG)
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hmm. If you want to play Improvisation you have to discard a card - that's not optional.

Playing a card using ME forces you to play that card two or three times.

TBH I don't see how it suddenly should be optional to fulfill that card completely!?

Same situation could be ME+Crystallize - I don't think you can play that combo if you can't pay the mana for the 2x or 3x use of Crystallize.
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Magnesi
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Bart_aus wrote:
Must I discard 3 cards on the minor effect maximal effect on improvisation?
Can I play minor play maximal effect on improvisation if I only have 1 card to discard?
Can I play minor play maximal effect on improvisation and choose to only play 2 discards?
The rules don't give the option of not paying the additional costs of a card: if you play a card with a cost, you must pay its cost. Rules say that if you can't pay the cost, the card can't be played, so I don't see any ambiguity here.

Related to that, I asked what happens in some corner cases (for instance, if I just have at hand Maximal Effect, Concentration, Tranquility and Improvisation, could I play powered ME + Concentration + Tranquility, draw 2 cards, + Improvisation, discard one of the drawn cards, and get Move 7? What if I draw 2 wounds? What if I know that the top card of my deck isn't a wound?). Ricky told me that he'd discuss with the developers and answer, but no answer has been given yet.
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Magnesi
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Seppel wrote:
Same situation could be ME+Crystallize - I don't think you can play that combo if you can't pay the mana for the 2x or 3x use of Crystallize.
The think with Crystallize is that you can pay mana, gain a crystal, pay the crystal, get a crystal, pay a crystal, gain the crystal. so, if you can pay the first mana, you can pay all of them.

Edit: By the way, notice that with the strong effect you don't have to pay 2xmana, you just get two crystals.
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Bart Keys
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syzygia wrote:
The think with Crystallize is that you can pay mana, gain a crystal, pay the crystal, get a crystal, pay a crystal, gain the crystal. so, if you can pay the first mana, you can pay all of them.


Yeah I don't agree with that, I think when you play ME on crystalise you must be able to show me you've paid all the requirements before you take the benefits.

I'd suggest that those three crystalises are all occurring at the same time, not one after another. I'd suggest that you are trying use a cards effects to power it's self.

It's also not clear to me how ME concentration should be played. (can you play 2 separate cards with concentration here?) but I would guess that you gain all the effects at the time you played ME, that all the effects are generated simultaneously, and can't be used to pay for each other.

In the same way I'm not sure you could ME-Concentration-Block to block two attacks. (ME-block on it's own does not work that way.)
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Gabriel Honore
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syzygia wrote:
The rules don't give the option of not paying the additional costs of a card: if you play a card with a cost, you must pay its cost. Rules say that if you can't pay the cost, the card can't be played, so I don't see any ambiguity here.

Under game rules, p4, deed cards, 6 :
rulebook wrote:
Some card effects order you to pay extra mana of some color, or to discard, or to throw away another card. These effects cannot be played if you are unable to do this.

I understand that the effect is not applied. It is nullified.

I actually believe effect was meant as card, but the intent was to clearly state there was no "cheats" or any way not to perform the pay/discard/throw away part of the effect but still get the benefit.
To make it clear that one holding improvisation as non wound card cannot find a way to claim it can be played.

When playing ME, he provides a card. The effect applies.
Maximal Effect wrote:
When you play this, play another Action card with it. Use the basic effect of that card three times. Then, throw away that card.

Then the three lots of improvisations are resolved. Maybe the last effects won't be applied.
And the rules clearly state that to benefit from the effect 2 or 3 times 2 or 3 cards have to be discarded. Not one...

That said, I perfectly understand another ruling saying you can't play ME in a such case.
 
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Bart_aus wrote:
It's also not clear to me how ME concentration should be played. (can you play 2 separate cards with concentration here?) but I would guess that you gain all the effects at the time you played ME, that all the effects are generated simultaneously, and can't be used to pay for each other.
OK, the question would be: ME + crystallize = "pay 3 mana tokens, you gain 3 crystals" (so you can't play it if you don't have 3 mana available), or "pay 1 mana token, gain 1 crystal. Pay 1 mana token..." (so you can use the first crystal as payment in the second effect).

In the link I gave before, Ricky said that it would be the second option:
syzygia wrote:
1. Can I play ME + Concentration, play tranquility, draw two cards and then decide the second card to concentrate, or should I play the two cards at the same time?
ricky2002 wrote:
1. resolve them 1 at a time, so play tranquility, draw 2, then play next card.

However, Ricky's answer may be incorrect, even if it was supposed to be an official answer. That interpretation is problematic in some corner cases.

I think the first option doesn't have any problem and it's simpler. I hope he or Paul see this post and either clarify what happens in these corner cases, or correct the official statement.
 
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Bart Keys
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syzygia wrote:
I think the first option doesn't have any problem and it's simpler. I hope he or Paul see this post and either clarify what happens in these corner cases, or correct the official statement.


Yeah, the more I think on ME the less I like the way it works with the other mechanics, some clarification would be nice. You posed some nice/good questions in that other thread.

(Also: I certainly feel like I should be able to ME block to block out a hydra's attacks, but I cant. )
 
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nomrefuse wrote:
syzygia wrote:
The rules don't give the option of not paying the additional costs of a card: if you play a card with a cost, you must pay its cost. Rules say that if you can't pay the cost, the card can't be played, so I don't see any ambiguity here.

Under game rules, p4, deed cards, 6 :
rulebook wrote:
Some card effects order you to pay extra mana of some color, or to discard, or to throw away another card. These effects cannot be played if you are unable to do this.

I understand that the effect is not applied. It is nullified.

I actually believe effect was meant as card, but the intent was to clearly state there was no "cheats" or any way not to perform the pay/discard/throw away part of the effect but still get the benefit.
To make it clear that one holding improvisation as non wound card cannot find a way to claim it can be played.

When playing ME, he provides a card. The effect applies.
Maximal Effect wrote:
When you play this, play another Action card with it. Use the basic effect of that card three times. Then, throw away that card.

Then the three lots of improvisations are resolved. Maybe the last effects won't be applied.
And the rules clearly state that to benefit from the effect 2 or 3 times 2 or 3 cards have to be discarded. Not one...

That said, I perfectly understand another ruling saying you can't play ME in a such case.
For me, "you cannot play the effect" means that "you cannot play the card", but I can see that it isn't 100% clear. In the link I gave, Ricky presumably official answer was that in these cases the cards cannot be played but, as I said in my post before, I hope that they clarify this point. Anyway, that's another point in favor that the "ME + crystallize = pay 3 mana tokens, you gain 3 crystals" interpretation is clearer and simpler.
 
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