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Warfighter: The Tactical Special Forces Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: The way the rules are written rss

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Gilles Desaintcannat
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Hello all,

I'm a great fan of DVG games (i own all of them) but.... i never saw so badly written rules !
Just a look at the number of questions in the forum !!!
Maybe GMT could help lol

Have a good games

Gilles
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Francisco Gutierrez
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I can't speak for anything other than warfighter and phantom leader, but I think the rulebook are fine. The problem is they are not written in such a way that rules are easy to look up.

I answer questions pretty frequently here and I pop open a pdf of the Rulebook and hit "find".
So it's more "people don't know where to look" than "people can't find it"
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Greg
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I only have Warfighter, but agree with Francisco.

The rules for it are fine in a sense to know how to play, but aren't organized the best for looking things up quickly, as things aren't always where you would expect them to be.
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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I find the two page Card Keywords very useful.

Otherwise the rules are good enough.

Read through them once
Then
Played the example, checking rules as I went
Then
Only looking when needed

PDF of rules is the best quick find index!
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Nick Wade
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Warfighter is one of the worst rulebooks I've read.

As so beautifully described elsewhere:

Quote:

This reads like he taught a 7 year old to play and then transcribed the kid's description of the game into a rulebook. It is written stream of consciousness...at best.
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Francisco Gutierrez
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"Stream of consciousness" is an insult? surprise
Either others need to read more Faulkner and Joyce or I need to read less.

Regardless, at least Dan can write novels if this boardgame thing doesn't work out

In all seriousness, David has a good point, the example of play was very useful in learning to play the game.
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Michael Andersch
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Gilloudelambesc wrote:
i never saw so badly written rules!
Just a look at the number of questions in the forum !!!


I strongly agree - but it's not only true for warfighter, but also for his other games.
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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There are lots of ways of writing rules.

Dan's way is just one.

I've read far worse rules
(Including some that I have written! whistle )

So... How would you write the rules?

I like an intro... But others want to get straight in.

I like designer notes through the rules and at the end... But others think that is just a distraction.

I like to start with the turn sequence and component descriptions... But by the end of those that is 90% of the rules written, just not in an easy format to read, which means repeating it again....

Others????
 
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Jim Alexander
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davidinsydney2 wrote:
There are lots of ways of writing rules.

Dan's way is just one.

I've read far worse rules
(Including some that I have written! whistle )

So... How would you write the rules?


Sequentially.

I) A list of components
II) The goal of the game (how to win)
III) Setting up
IV) Order of Play -- Soldier Turn (w/phases sequentially explained), followed by Hostile Turn (w/phases sequentially explained)

After which, I'd have a detailed Reference section covering component specificity (where to find what on each type of card, the counters, etc.).

I'd also include a section pertaining to Combat -- specifically how to conduct such via different types of Soldiers, Explosive weapons, etc.

Lastly, there would be the Optional Rules and Campaign variants, etc.
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Moe45673
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Isn't there a second edition rulebook that's rewritten?

Regardless, I learned the game from the 1st ed rulebook. After reading the sample playthrough at the end, it all came together. I think a lot of the complainers skipped that.

Additionally, Holly Verssen put out an excellent video that describes the rules. It's essentially the same thing as the sample playthrough.
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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I've only read the second edition rules.

Did they differ markedly from the first?

I love how DVG posts the rules as a PDF!
Means you don't need to buy blind and ctrl f means I can find a rule really quickly.

I'm not much into videos of how to play ( dinosaur ), but appreciate that others like them.
http://www.dvg.com/.sc/ms/dd/ee/73/Warfighter
 
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Jim Alexander
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davidinsydney2 wrote:
I've only read the second edition rules.

Did they differ markedly from the first?


I initially bought Warfighter (which I believe had the first edition rules), then subsequently the Footlocker expansion (which I believe had the second edition rules).

Whether or not these are the two different editions, there are differences between my two copies, but they are minimal.

In either case, they are not sequential as most game rules are -- hence the dilemma (and why I attempted to completely rewrite them two months ago -- which DVG can have with my compliments if they so desire). (I sent another copy via email this afternoon.)
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Michael Andersch
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davidinsydney2 wrote:
So... How would you write the rules?


In "normal" games, materials are explained, followed by "the rules".
In DVG's games, rules are fragmented and dispersed throughout the entire document. This is the case in all of the Leader Series games, as well as it is in Warfighter. There are rules in the materials section (e.g. description of Cards), in the "Course of the game" section and sometimes you also find something new when going through the playthrough at the end of the rules.

For example: Movement is partially explained at at least 6 places:
- Location Action Cards (p6) (entrance cost)
- Player Soldier Cards (p8) (Movement)
- Non Player Soldier Cards (p9) (Movement)
- Soldier Turn, Move (p15)(That's where I actually would expect a combined and complete description of how movement is handled)
- Movement (p15)
- Completing the Objective (p18) Activating the objective card by declaring it as next Location - which in fact is a special form of a movement, I think.

Same with attacking.

Why?
Why can't DVG just describe the materials (without describing how to use special data on the cards), then write a rules section that contains EVERYTHING - General rules, exceptions, special cases,...?

In my eyes, this makes the rulebook a nightmare to find things, leads to lots of rulesquestions and maybe also increases the probability that DVG itself overlooks things or doesn't get them consistent.

And I'm not really willing to also have to view a video to completely learn a game. IT#s a nice add-on, but the rules must stand for themselves.


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Moe45673
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You do not have to view a video to learn the game (although plenty do that in general anyway with Rahdo or Watch it Played or what have you). I explicitly said that the video has essentially the same content as the sample playthrough at the back of the book. That latter bit is what really had all the rules tie together for me.
 
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Francisco Gutierrez
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I think the point most people are missing is that we read the same rule book and we understand the rules. The rule book facilitates learning rather than serving as reference guide.

The long and short of it is, I guess I'm used to playing RPGS. They're long books which although split into different chapters require the reader to "keep reading until it makes sense" or "flip back and forth".


As far as rewriting the "perfect rulebook", I like the thing Fantasy Flight did. The first game I noticed that they began splitting their rules into a rule book and reference guide was Eldritch Horror.
People will not stop crying about that change on that forum. Like the glossary of terms at the back of warfighter, the reference guide made it easier to look up keywords at the expense of it taking longer to actually read through the rules. Then again the rules were like 50 pages max so its not a long read whistle
 
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Dan Verssen
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The points about us needing to reformat our rules writing are well taken. Starting with Modern Land Battles, we started a new format system.

If you have a chance, please take a look at the online MLB rules and see what you think.
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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Here's the link to the MLB rules.

At

http://www.dvg.com/.sc/ms/dd/ee/24/Modern%20Land%20Battles

I found them very easy to read and then play.

What do you think?
 
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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So for a belated* Christmas present

Who would lie me to try to put War Fighter into the MLB rules format?

* it may take me a couple of weeks...
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Michael Andersch
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davidinsydney2 wrote:
Who would lie me to try to put War Fighter into the MLB rules format?


I guess this is not necessary, as we all know how to play it, and most of the rules questions have been answered (hopefully whistle.
Better rules would have been appreciated beforehand, and - I would like DVG to create and offer good rules in general, cause they also take the money (and their games aren't cheap)!
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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I'm thinking that with Wave 3 on the horizon, that if there is a chance to put our 2c in on the rules format, then we can rejoice if the final product meets our expectations.

From the above post by Dan, it looks likely that the MLB format is going to be used for future games.

I like the MLB format, but then I haven't had much problem with the old format, and so I'm interested in other views about it.

I'm really looking forward to wave 3!
DVG will get my money even if the rules are not perfect, but like you I would love for perfection in the rules so as not to detract from my enjoyment if the game.
Hence I see Dan's post above as an invitation to us all to say if we are happy with the new format.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year from Down Under to all!
 
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