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Subject: Two Questions (April Spoilers!) rss

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1. If the first Faded figure was placed via an outbreak, does the outbreaking city become faded and/or Ground Zero, or is GZ a place it outbroke to? The reason I ask is that technically we weren't ever supposed to place a cube on the out breaking city.

If it's the latter, our GZ will be Chicago which seems pretty crazy.

EDIT this has been answered. The outbreaking city fades and is Ground Zero

2. At game end, if you are having more chained outbreaks than you need to lose, you don't resolve extras for purpose of raising panic level. Do you resolve them all for the purposes of spreading fade?
 
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Byron S
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How could a faded possibly be added by an outbreak? Outbreaks only spread cubes of the color of the outbreaking disease.
 
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runtsta wrote:
How could a faded possibly be added by an outbreak? Outbreaks only spread cubes of the color of the outbreaking disease.


Outbreak in Mexico City spreads yellow to Chicago. By the new rules, we place faded instead of yellow.

Clearly Chicago becomes faded. The question is if MC also does and which is Ground Zero because technically we weren't supposed to place any cubes on it.
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Is blue or yellow your COdA color?
 
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runtsta wrote:
Is blue or yellow your COdA color?


Yellow
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Look at the rules sticker you just added on page 12. It says:

* Place faded figures instead of coda cubes.
* BEFORE placing faded, mark the city as faded with a sticker, then replace all coda cubes there with faded. Only then place the figure or trigger an outbreak.

Your outbreaking city becomes city zero.
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If Mexico City already has the yellow disease in it, they should be Faded figures instead of yellow cubes, and it should already have become Ground Zero before it outbroke.
 
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runtsta wrote:
If Mexico City already has the yellow disease in it, they should be Faded figures instead of yellow cubes, and it should already have become Ground Zero before it outbroke.


MC already had 3 cubes when we drew the Faded card. I have already double checked that they don't convert upon drawing the card.
 
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Look at the rules sticker you just added on page 12. It says:

* Place faded figures instead of coda cubes.
* BEFORE placing faded, mark the city as faded with a sticker, then replace all coda cubes there with faded. Only then place the figure or trigger an outbreak.

Your outbreaking city becomes city zero.


This makes sense, thanks!

Any idea on the second question?
 
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ignorantpenguin wrote:
Any idea on the second question?

2. At game end, if you are having more chained outbreaks than you need to lose, you don't resolve extras for purpose of raising panic level. Do you resolve them all for the purposes of spreading fade?

Not sure, but I'd say no, don't resolve the extras for any reason.
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runtsta wrote:
ignorantpenguin wrote:
Any idea on the second question?

2. At game end, if you are having more chained outbreaks than you need to lose, you don't resolve extras for purpose of raising panic level. Do you resolve them all for the purposes of spreading fade?

Not sure, but I'd say no, don't resolve the extras for any reason.


That's how we played it. I'm pretty sure the word of the rules is to resolve them, but it seemed like the spirit was to stop at 8.

Thanks!
 
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Deb Wentworth
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That's how we played it too. I think the intent is to stop immediately if one of the losing conditions is met.
 
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Clive Jones

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(Last week, I tried to create a rationalised framework for thinking about this kind of issue, but was met with stony silence. Ah well.)


Concerning your first question, the rules are explicit about what happens in this circumstance, but there's a delicate ping-pong between the sections on infections and outbreaks:

• You (try to) place one infection marker in Mexico City
• Mexico City is the C0Da colour, so you try to place a Faded figure in Mexico City.
• Before placing Faded figures there, mark Mexico City as faded and replace all yellow cubes there with Faded figures, as per rule sticker R.
• Mexico City already has three faded figures, so don't place a 4th, instead there is an outbreak in the city
• In handling that outbreak, you (try to) place one faded figure in Chicago.
• Again, rule sticker R applies: before placing that Faded figure, mark Chicago as faded, replace any yellow cubes there with Faded figures.
• Add a faded figure to Chicago. (If you can. If there isn't room, you now have a chain-reaction outbreak on your hands.)

So far as I can see, rule sticker U only clarifies, it doesn't say anything you can't deduce by precisely following sticker R.


(As an aside, I choose to believe rule sticker R applies to adding cubes during an outbreak, because otherwise nonsense ensues: suppose there's an outbreak in a faded city A adjacent to a non-faded city B containing three C0Da cubes. Relying only on rule sticker U, you'd fade B without converting existing C0Da cubes there into faded figures, leaving B containing three C0Da cubes, one Faded figure and no outbreak. Next time B turned up in the infection deck you'd fade it, convert the C0Da cubes into Faded figures, and end up with a city containing four faded figures. That's so broken I think we have to say rule sticker R applies during an outbreak.)


For the second question, I'm not convinced other commenters have got the answer precisely right.

The first question is: which cities outbreak? That's answered by the section on outbreaks: "If more than 8 cities would outbreak (due to chain reactions) players may choose which cities outbreak and increase their panic level, stopping when you get to the 8th outbreak". That is, 8 is the maximum number of cities that will ever outbreak in a game of Pandemic Legacy. If you have an eighth outbreak and there are more to come, the remaining outbreaks don't happen. But the rules also make it (fairly) clear that that eighth outbreak does happen in its entirety.

The second question is: what happens when a city outbreaks? The "outbreaks" section of the rulebook answers this:
• Advance the outbreaks marker
• (Try to) place 1 disease marker on every city connected to the city (which hasn't already experienced an outbreak as part of this chain reaction)
• Increase the panic level (potentially removing research stations or losing characters)
• Scar characters in the city

So my answer is: when you're losing the game because of a chain-reaction outbreak, you choose the order in which to resolve outbreaks, and only the first eight actually occur. You don't resolve the extra ones for fading or any other purpose.

But, you do try to place faded figures in the cities surrounding each city in which an outbreak does occur. So even if the game ends before an outbreak occurs in a city, the city which would have had the outbreak has already faded because of the adjacent outbreak.

There might be an exception, here: it could be that if you run out of Faded figures during the chain reaction the game ends at once, saving you from further fading. However, the rule that "Any future cubes [...] don't happen" is vague as to whether any side-effects of trying to place a cube do happen, and that wording in any case only appears in the section for running out of cubes, not the one on rule sticker V for running out of Faded figures. Hmm!
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clivej wrote:
(Last week, I tried to create a rationalised framework for thinking about this kind of issue, but was met with stony silence. Ah well.)

Concerning your first question, the rules are explicit about what happens in this circumstance, but there's a delicate ping-pong between the sections on infections and outbreaks:

• You (try to) place one infection marker in Mexico City
• Mexico City is the C0Da colour, so you try to place a Faded figure in Mexico City.
• Before placing Faded figures there, mark Mexico City as faded and replace all yellow cubes there with Faded figures, as per rule sticker R.
• Mexico City already has three faded figures, so don't place a 4th, instead there is an outbreak in the city
• In handling that outbreak, you (try to) place one faded figure in Chicago.
• Again, rule sticker R applies: before placing that Faded figure, mark Chicago as faded, replace any yellow cubes there with Faded figures.
• Add a faded figure to Chicago. (If you can. If there isn't room, you now have a chain-reaction outbreak on your hands.)

So far as I can see, rule sticker U only clarifies, it doesn't say anything you can't deduce by precisely following sticker R.


(As an aside, I choose to believe rule sticker R applies to adding cubes during an outbreak, because otherwise nonsense ensues: suppose there's an outbreak in a faded city A adjacent to a non-faded city B containing three C0Da cubes. Relying only on rule sticker U, you'd fade B without converting existing C0Da cubes there into faded figures, leaving B containing three C0Da cubes, one Faded figure and no outbreak. Next time B turned up in the infection deck you'd fade it, convert the C0Da cubes into Faded figures, and end up with a city containing four faded figures. That's so broken I think we have to say rule sticker R applies during an outbreak.)


For the second question, I'm not convinced other commenters have got the answer precisely right.

The first question is: which cities outbreak? That's answered by the section on outbreaks: "If more than 8 cities would outbreak (due to chain reactions) players may choose which cities outbreak and increase their panic level, stopping when you get to the 8th outbreak". That is, 8 is the maximum number of cities that will ever outbreak in a game of Pandemic Legacy. If you have an eighth outbreak and there are more to come, the remaining outbreaks don't happen. But the rules also make it (fairly) clear that that eighth outbreak does happen in its entirety.

The second question is: what happens when a city outbreaks? The "outbreaks" section of the rulebook answers this:
• Advance the outbreaks marker
• (Try to) place 1 disease marker on every city connected to the city (which hasn't already experienced an outbreak as part of this chain reaction)
• Increase the panic level (potentially removing research stations or losing characters)
• Scar characters in the city

So my answer is: when you're losing the game because of a chain-reaction outbreak, you choose the order in which to resolve outbreaks, and only the first eight actually occur. You don't resolve the extra ones for fading or any other purpose.

But, you do try to place faded figures in the cities surrounding each city in which an outbreak does occur. So even if the game ends before an outbreak occurs in a city, the city which would have had the outbreak has already faded because of the adjacent outbreak.

There might be an exception, here: it could be that if you run out of Faded figures during the chain reaction the game ends at once, saving you from further fading. However, the rule that "Any future cubes [...] don't happen" is vague as to whether any side-effects of trying to place a cube do happen, and that wording in any case only appears in the section for running out of cubes, not the one on rule sticker V for running out of Faded figures. Hmm!


Cliff, your response is entirely correct.

To answer your remaining point, if you run out of Faded figures, the game ends immediately -- and therefore you do not need to resolve any remaining outbreaks after you run out of figures.
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Clive Jones

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Sorry - I've just realised that doesn't completely answer my question.

OK, so if you run out of Faded figures, the game ends before you process any further outbreaks in the chain reaction. But does it end before you try to infect any more cities as part of the current outbreak? Can I try to place a Faded in the first adjacent city, fade it, run out of Faded figures and therefore end the game before the other adjacent cities fade, or do I have to fade all of them even though I don't have the Faded figures to place there?

Relatedly, if I end the game by running out of infection markers while infecting adjacent cities during an outbreak, do I still increase the panic level in the outbreak city and scar characters standing there?


PS: A question which cropped up elsewhere. Can you confirm that an outbreak of one of the other three diseases from a Faded city doesn't cause fading, only an outbreak of Faded figures?
 
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clivej wrote:
Sorry - I've just realised that doesn't completely answer my question.

OK, so if you run out of Faded figures, the game ends before you process any further outbreaks in the chain reaction. But does it end before you try to infect any more cities as part of the current outbreak? Can I try to place a Faded in the first adjacent city, fade it, run out of Faded figures and therefore end the game before the other adjacent cities fade, or do I have to fade all of them even though I don't have the Faded figures to place there?


The game *ends*. So, yeah, it ends before you do any of these things.

clivej wrote:
Relatedly, if I end the game by running out of infection markers while infecting adjacent cities during an outbreak, do I still increase the panic level in the outbreak city and scar characters standing there?


If you infected the adjacent cities, you increase the panic level. If you didn't, you don't.

This of it this way: do the stuff you need to do. When the game ends, stop.

clivej wrote:

PS: A question which cropped up elsewhere. Can you confirm that an outbreak of one of the other three diseases from a Faded city doesn't cause fading, only an outbreak of Faded figures?


Right. Only the Faded figures cause Faded cities.
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Robert Stewart
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So the sequence for an outbreak is:

Advance Outbreak marker.
Infect surrounding cities (if that would give the fourth token of that colour, and that city isn't on the outbroken list add them to the pending outbreaks list instead). End the game if you can't place all the required tokens.
Increase Panic and Scar characters.
End the game if the Outbreak marker has reached 8.
Add this city to the outbroken list.
If there are any pending outbreaks, pick one to resolve.
 
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Clive Jones

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That omits (pops to check which month this thread is in; we're good) quarantine markers, isolating cities and fading, but seems correct as a broad outline, yes.

I may be proven wrong by stuff which hasn't cropped up yet (particularly, it may some day matter whether one loses on outbreaks or infection markers), but as things stand it looks as though it would have been equivalent yet considerably clearer to restructure:

Infect surrounding cities (inc. Quarantine, fading, losing on infection markers, chain reaction, etc.)
Increase panic level (inc. scarring, lost characters, riots, etc.)
Unless the city was isolated, advance the outbreaks marker and lose if you reach the end.
The outbreak is complete; move city to the outbroken list.

In other words, why not put advancing the outbreaks marker at the same point in the procedure as checking whether or not you've lost on outbreaks?
 
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Robert Stewart
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clivej wrote:
In other words, why not put advancing the outbreaks marker at the same point in the procedure as checking whether or not you've lost on outbreaks?


I suspect the short answer is "because they copied the vanilla rulebook and then added Legacy stuff" - in the vanilla game, it doesn't matter whether you lose from starting Outbreak #8, or from running out of cubes during #8 (nor whether you process the effects of Outbreaks #9-#15 or whenever the chain finally ends) so the only consideration influencing what order the rules should be in is how likely players are to miss something.

For Pandemic Legacy, where it does matter what order you do things in, overlooking rules is still a valid concern - and advancing the Outbreaks marker is one that could easily be overlooked if it were listed at the end of the Scars section...

There's also an argument for not changing the vanilla rules where possible - that way, players familiar with the vanilla rulebook can compare them more easily (directly or from memory) and see what's added/changed - the rule about naming eradicated diseases, added to the middle of an existing section, is an example of how easily the changes get overlooked even when the vanilla text is unchanged...
 
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I do wish the design team had adopted a clear ordering, achievable simply by adding the Legacy components to the list, as follows:

1. Place a Panic Sticker on the city.
- If the city has Fallen, characters in the city are Lost.
2. Scar characters in the city.
- Characters unable to add a scar are Lost.
3. Increase the Outbreak marker.
- If the Outbreak marker is now at 8, the game ends.
4. Place cubes in adjacent cities.
- If unable to place cubes, the game ends.
5. If there are any cities in a Chain Outbreak situation, select any of them, and begin Step 1 for that city.

That would be very explicit, and you could then have each of the sections described in detail. Note that that list is subtly different than Clive's all-but-official interpretation, in that my list would Scar the character in the case that running out of cubes ends the game during a chain Outbreak.

So far, it hasn't come up for us - we've ended a game that way, but the Panic Sticker / Scar question hasn't come up, and the one time we had Scar risk we were able to structure it so that it was in the 9th city to outbreak.
 
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Clive Jones

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Personally, I don't find your ordering any more clear than the one we actually have.

I think it's just the clarity of the exposition that matters. I appreciate Robert's point that they may have made a valiant attempt to structure the rules as "Here's the Pandemic stuff you know; now here are the Legacy additions", but that simply doesn't work because to play as intended you must intersperse new stuff amongst the old.

In another thread, we discussed getting lawyers involved in the rules wording for Season 2. Another option - dare I say it - would be flowcharts. And players could have endless fun sticking new bits over old as the rules changed!
 
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Robert Stewart
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Amaroq81 wrote:
I do wish the design team had adopted a clear ordering, achievable simply by adding the Legacy components to the list, as follows:

1. Place a Panic Sticker on the city.
- If the city has Fallen, characters in the city are Lost.
2. Scar characters in the city.
- Characters unable to add a scar are Lost.
3. Increase the Outbreak marker.
- If the Outbreak marker is now at 8, the game ends.
4. Place cubes in adjacent cities.
- If unable to place cubes, the game ends.
5. If there are any cities in a Chain Outbreak situation, select any of them, and begin Step 1 for that city.

That would be very explicit, and you could then have each of the sections described in detail. Note that that list is subtly different than Clive's all-but-official interpretation, in that my list would Scar the character in the case that running out of cubes ends the game during a chain Outbreak.

So far, it hasn't come up for us - we've ended a game that way, but the Panic Sticker / Scar question hasn't come up, and the one time we had Scar risk we were able to structure it so that it was in the 9th city to outbreak.


You also have #3 and #4 the wrong way around, based on official statements - you always place the cubes (unless you run out) for the 8th outbreak, which becomes significant later in the campaign.
 
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clivej wrote:
Personally, I don't find your ordering any more clear than the one we actually have.

I think it's just the clarity of the exposition that matters. I appreciate Robert's point that they may have made a valiant attempt to structure the rules as "Here's the Pandemic stuff you know; now here are the Legacy additions", but that simply doesn't work because to play as intended you must intersperse new stuff amongst the old.

In another thread, we discussed getting lawyers involved in the rules wording for Season 2. Another option - dare I say it - would be flowcharts. And players could have endless fun sticking new bits over old as the rules changed!


There are also minor points about what's important to do every time, and what you can leave to do after processing the entire chain - you want to always advance the outbreak marker (or at least remember to check whether you're up to 8 outbreaks yet) but you can afford to leave adding stickers (panic level and scars) until after the chain resolves - so in actual play, the procedure is something like:

0) Plan out which cities will outbreak in the chain
1) Advance outbreak marker
2) Add cubes to neighbouring cities
3) If not yet to 8 outbreaks, repeat from 1) for chained outbreak(s)
Y) Even if the game has ended, add the next panic sticker to each outbroken city in the chain
Z) Even if the game has ended, scar each character in an outbroken city
 
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Clive Jones

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rmsgrey wrote:
There are also minor points about what's important to do every time, and what you can leave to do after processing the entire chain

There are things you can do after processing the entire chain which the rules say to do outbreak by outbreak as you go along. The question is: why would you want to do them all at the end?

Actually, a better question is why you would want to explain the rules that way? Players comfortable with what's going on in a given situation can obviously do things in any other order which gives the same outcome. (For example, we often have one player laying out cubes while another's peeling panic stickers off the sheet and a third's advancing the outbreaks counter. They'll sometimes get out of sync, and that's fine.) The purpose of the rules is to explain in a way that makes it possible for people to get the correct result at all. Finding other ways to get that result is left as an exercise for the reader.

Quote:
[...]so in actual play, the procedure is something like:

0) Plan out which cities will outbreak in the chain
1) Advance outbreak marker
2) Add cubes to neighbouring cities
[...]

If you're not an experienced Pandemic player, you're going to need to place the cubes in order to understand how the chain reaction is going to proceed, though.
 
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