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Subject: Is this game too easy to do whatever you want? rss

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Renato Tavares
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I really like this game, but after several plays, I have the feeling that is too easy to do whatever you want. There Is too little oportunities To block the others players or to struggle by meeple placment anywere...
So we played it one last time with five players. It was a more competitive match, but still too loose, IMO. The events are weak and too easy to acomplish, even with the updated rules...
What's you opinion?
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Dan Licata
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I only have one play in so far and I was impressed at how much timing, and missing out on things due to turn order came into effect late in the game. I know now that I have to plan further ahead for a lot of what you will want to do later in the game. Sure right at the start you will be doing pretty much whatever you want, but if you don't plan it out right you will be missing out on things closer to the end.
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Renato Tavares
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danlicata wrote:
I only have one play in so far and I was impressed at how much timing, and missing out on things due to turn order came into effect late in the game. I know now that I have to plan further ahead for a lot of what you will want to do later in the game. Sure right at the start you will be doing pretty much whatever you want, but if you don't plan it out right you will be missing out on things closer to the end.


The early dispute for buildings is the one aspect that I noticed that could impact in the gameplay... What else have you noticed?
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Kathy Sheets
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I'd agree if I could win every time.
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S. R.
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You know that you cannot build trading posts in cities where such trading posts already exist?
In games with four, and especially in games with five, players, this is one of the most restrictive and fought-over aspects of the game. Especially in mid-game. This shifts a little towards the Pious Works (or whatever they are called in English) in the last third of the game, I'd say, because of the run on citizens.

If you play with less than four players regularly, chances are that the map provides too many opportunities to circumvent blockades.
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Dan Licata
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Casulo wrote:
danlicata wrote:
I only have one play in so far and I was impressed at how much timing, and missing out on things due to turn order came into effect late in the game. I know now that I have to plan further ahead for a lot of what you will want to do later in the game. Sure right at the start you will be doing pretty much whatever you want, but if you don't plan it out right you will be missing out on things closer to the end.


The early dispute for buildings is the one aspect that I noticed that could impact in the gameplay... What else have you noticed?


That was the only 'early' dispute I noticed. But later in the game you have issues with getting the workers you want before running out, setting yourself up on the points track, trade houses, the retirement board (whatever it's called I can't remember)etc. All of that needs to be considered during your early game play as you may not be able to do what you want towards the end.
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Renato Tavares
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Dumon wrote:
You know that you cannot build trading posts in cities where such trading posts already exist?
In games with four, and especially in games with five, players, this is one of the most restrictive and fought-over aspects of the game. Especially in mid-game. This shifts a little towards the Pious Works (or whatever they are called in English) in the last third of the game, I'd say, because of the run on citizens.

If you play with less than four players regularly, chances are that the map provides too many opportunities to circumvent blockades.


Yes, I know. But only if you play with four players or more.
 
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Renato Tavares
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danlicata wrote:
Casulo wrote:
danlicata wrote:
I only have one play in so far and I was impressed at how much timing, and missing out on things due to turn order came into effect late in the game. I know now that I have to plan further ahead for a lot of what you will want to do later in the game. Sure right at the start you will be doing pretty much whatever you want, but if you don't plan it out right you will be missing out on things closer to the end.


The early dispute for buildings is the one aspect that I noticed that could impact in the gameplay... What else have you noticed?


That was the only 'early' dispute I noticed. But later in the game you have issues with getting the workers you want before running out, setting yourself up on the points track, trade houses, the retirement board (whatever it's called I can't remember)etc. All of that needs to be considered during your early game play as you may not be able to do what you want towards the end.


I agree. What I am trying to say is that the game is not too confrontacional. It´s rare to be without resources and / or money. And I think that some buildings, like those which produces expensive resources are a bit stronger than the majority of the others.
The dispute about the retirement board only matters at the end of the game too, IMO.
 
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Renato Tavares
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Don´t get me wrong, I don´t think that the game is broken or not playtested; I just think that the game mechanics is great but could have a more tigher competition about several itens in the game...
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Renato Tavares
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Nowadays, after have playing hundreds of different games, we are looking for games with more difficult decisions, and this game could fit in this category with some adjustments, IMO. But thank you for you opinion guys!
 
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David Marceau
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I don't think so. I found myself wanting to do different things but having to wait until I got the characters out of my bag that I needed. Then I had a plague and lost my Monk and Merchant. The competition to get citizens kind of leads to being able to block certain players. I don't think it is too easy to do whatever you want until the later rounds when you have your engine built but that is common in most games. The only complaint I had is the final scoring is never really close - I wish it had hidden objectives.
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Kathy Sheets
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Hitfordcycle wrote:
I don't think so. I found myself wanting to do different things but having to wait until I got the characters out of my bag that I needed. Then I had a plague and lost my Monk and Merchant. The competition to get citizens kind of leads to being able to block certain players. I don't think it is too easy to do whatever you want until the later rounds when you have your engine built but that is common in most games. The only complaint I had is the final scoring is never really close - I wish it had hidden objectives.


That's interesting, David. Our games have been quite close but we mostly have played 2p.
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Casulo wrote:
I really like this game, but after several plays, I have the feeling that is too easy to do whatever you want. There Is too little oportunities To block the others players or to struggle by meeple placment anywere...
So we played it one last time with five players. It was a more competitive match, but still too loose, IMO. The events are weak and too easy to acomplish, even with the updated rules...
What's you opinion?


The events are definitely too weak.

There is an official variant to improve the position, and you could always use events from Invasion to improve it further. Or even just double the impact of the official variant events.

Switching to a variable place tile market variant also helps quite a bit (the variants forum has loads).

But the game is fundamentally about pularities on the various tracks, so if it is too loose, you need to help your group get better at the game. In the end it is as tight or loose as the people you play against.
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Eleon Forsht
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I have played many times, and all of them have been 4 to 5 player games (so that might be influencing my thoughts a bit, but I feel 4 player is the number of people the game was made to play with).

In my games people saw really fast that Buildings (and the quality ones), where going to go fast and on average you might get 2 to 3, but only if you get them before other people.

In my mind the best spot in the game is going 2nd and the worst is going last (I wish they gave you more for going last in 5 player as it is the hardest spot to win from). If I had more games (and tracking under my belt) I would be tempted to give extra coins to the 4th and 5th players.

The 1st is strong for best pick of level 1 buildings, and 2nd is amazingly powerful as you get first choice of level 2 building and 2nd choice of level 1 buildings. I do not believe I have lost going 1st or 2nd so far.

Now to help offset this I have been trying to pick up all of the expansions to add more buildings into the game so the 4th and 5th player are not as screwed out of good buildings. But that is a different topic.

So in the games I have played I have felt very limited. We do use the variant events (with the 3 piles of events and them being harder overall), so that helps a lot of forcing people to farm and move around a bit more earlier than they might normally.

So in most of my games the games are normally:
Buy 2 buildings within the first 3 turns of the game.
Followed by a scholar, then monks,
The trying to get some gears and knights to make the later turns more powerful.
Once you get more actions then moving up the achievement track to make buildings worth more points is "extra" actions to get done before game ends.
Then use your buildings and moving around the map to go for the win.

During all of this there is also trying to get some food to pay for the events so you do not lose 5 coins.

In every game I play we run out of craftsmen, and builders very fast (as building and gears are the two most powerful enablers in the game for points or extra actions).

I have found 125 is normally the point area to shoot for to win, but I have seen scores in the 150 before (even in 5 player games).

So back to your original statement of "I have the feeling that is too easy to do whatever you want".

I find that you can do anything you want, but most actions if not done in a perfect order will just end up costing you the game. To me the actions feel very tight, and you must always pick what is your priority, because you will never be able to get all of the items you want. In every game I have played everything EXCEPT Boatmen has run out, and sometimes they have run out as early as turn 5.

The threat of these resource running out can be used to force people to do stuff "faster" than they might want, else they will have to do without.
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Renato Tavares
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eldaec wrote:
Casulo wrote:
I really like this game, but after several plays, I have the feeling that is too easy to do whatever you want. There Is too little oportunities To block the others players or to struggle by meeple placment anywere...
So we played it one last time with five players. It was a more competitive match, but still too loose, IMO. The events are weak and too easy to acomplish, even with the updated rules...
What's you opinion?


The events are definitely too weak.

There is an official variant to improve the position, and you could always use events from Invasion to improve it further. Or even just double the impact of the official variant events.

Switching to a variable place tile market variant also helps quite a bit (the variants forum has loads).

But the game is fundamentally about pularities on the various tracks, so if it is too loose, you need to help your group get better at the game. In the end it is as tight or loose as the people you play against.


Great tips! Thanks!!!!
 
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