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Subject: kill, but don't swear, son. rss

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yeah? well… y’know, that’s just like, uh… your opinion, man…
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okay, let's see if i get this right.

there is a new game, free to download, looks promising, graphically well done, topic:

"kill as many undead as you can, as bloody as you can (using guns, knives, hammers, nailguns, chainsaws, even lawn mowers)."

so far so good - for me cool sounds like perfect AT to me. gonna love it.

almost instantly there were reactions that said "sounds like a fun game, i want to try it with my kids, but there is a card using the bad f**k-word, i want to preserve them of reading THAT. could you please change it?"

the game designer reacted instantly in a nice, effective and polite way - apologising & publishing a revised card set.

i respect everybody who wants to keep his kids from swear words. honestly. but i just can't get in my head why a gory theme like this should be BETTER for them?!?!

kill, but don't swear, son.
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Tim Franklin
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woodoo03 wrote:
i respect everybody who wants to keep his kids from swear words. honestly. but i just can't get in my head why a gory theme like this should be BETTER for them?!?!

kill, but don't swear, son.


It's just one of those things that's regarded differently on different sides of the Atlantic.

Left-pondians: Violence OK, sex (and by extension, swearing, since the vast majority of it is biological in origin) bad
Right-pondians: Sex OK, violence bad

(And on a cynical day, "UK: everything bad devil )

Yes, that's a sweeping generalisation, my apologies to individuals on either side who don't fit it.
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I see two possible reasons.

1. Most people probably don't think very highly of zombies. Depiction of zombie murder or even influence towards hostility towards zombies might therefore be something that is socially acceptable.

2. Removing one thing that is "objectionable" could be an improvement even if there are several.
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If Actions Speak Louder Than Words, Then Actions x2 Speak Louder Than Actions
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Quote:
i respect everybody who wants to keep his kids from swear words. honestly. but i just can't get in my head why a gory theme like this should be BETTER for them?!?!


Are you kidding me?! How else are you going to train your kids against the threat of a zombie epidemic? Kids must be made aware that their neighbors, friends and family might become zombies at any moment and will be coming for their sweet, little brain-casings. You did the right thing, man.

Foul language is unacceptable.

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Burzum wrote:

1. Most people probably don't think very highly of zombies. Depiction of zombie murder or even influence towards hostility towards zombies might therefore be something that is socially acceptable.



Also replace the above with humanoids with covered faces.

In many movies, violence towards humans or humanoids is okay as long as they're wearing a mask or helmet over their face. If you're going to mow down or otherwise blow away hordes of ninja and/or enemy attackers, then at least get them to cover their faces so you won't feel any negative emotions.

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Paul DeStefano
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Killing zombies is fantasy.

There's a small chance my son will kill zombies after playing a game.

Swearing is real.

There's too much a chance my son will swear after playing a game.


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Geosphere wrote:
Killing zombies is fantasy.

There's a small chance my son will kill zombies after playing a game.

Swearing is real.

There's too much a chance my son will swear after playing a game.



The question is definitely what is going to produce undesirable behavior because of the game. Therefore the swearing is definitely more of a threat to producing undesirable behavior so I would be more concerned about that as well. I don't think that I'd play a gory game with my kids for obvious reasons but I definitely wouldn't play a game that had swearing on the cards.
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Nate Merchant
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Geosphere wrote:
Killing zombies is fantasy.

There's a small chance my son will kill zombies after playing a game.

Swearing is real.

There's too much a chance my son will swear after playing a game.


You know, I hope Paul's post is a joke, but it may not be.

In this culture there is a wide acceptance of and glorification of violence, death and destruction, and also a glorification of militaristic culture. Look at our mainstream movies nowadays. But sex and/or swearing? Absolutely no tolerance whatsoever. I'm serious, it sounds totally backwards and hypocritical, but most American parents wouldn't bat an eye if their 12-year-old sees a violent movie with multiple graphic deaths or plays a game with same. No problem. But swearing or seeing a breast? That's forbidden! Shame!

And so we have by and large a socierty that unconsiously revels in violence (especially perpetrated by itself) but has *really* confused notions about sex, censorship, women, and art. We're still a bloodthirsty Puritan country at heart, sad to say, where violoence good, sex bad.
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What I find funny is its OK in a movie to see a woman dismembered/disemboweled(sp?) but you can't see her nipple. Killing is Ok but sex is bad.

WTF.

Mike
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tim-pelican wrote:

It's just one of those things that's regarded differently on different sides of the Atlantic.

Left-pondians: Violence OK, sex (and by extension, swearing, since the vast majority of it is biological in origin) bad
Right-pondians: Sex OK, violence bad

(And on a cynical day, "UK: everything bad devil )

Yes, that's a sweeping generalisation, my apologies to individuals on either side who don't fit it.


This is where I'd like to point out that America was founded in part by the people (The Pilgrims) who were felt that England wasn't religious enough...
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Well, clearly, the zombies are evil, so killing them...even in gruesome/gory ways is ok.

It's matter of fantasy. Yes, there's a big difference between fantasy/game violence and bad language.
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matthew.marquand wrote:
...

In many movies, violence towards humans or humanoids is okay as long as they're wearing a mask or helmet over their face. If you're going to mow down or otherwise blow away hordes of ninja and/or enemy attackers, then at least get them to cover their faces so you won't feel any negative emotions.



I thought part of what the movie A History Of Violence explored was the way that many people not only accept violence in movies but even cheer it on.

They didn't do it by covering the bad guys faces (although they sort of did by covering Ed Harris's face with scars) but by making sure you knew they were bad, bad people.

Then when the hero 'took them out' people were cheering him on.

Then the director would cut to very graphic close-ups of the mangled bodies of the bad guys.

It seemed like what the director was trying to say was "This is the horrific results of what you were just cheering. Is that really something to cheer about?".
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Nate Merchant
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kingbobb wrote:
Well, clearly, the zombies are evil, so killing them...even in gruesome/gory ways is ok.


Is this a joke,too?

Let me help kingbobb here: clearly, the zombies, terrorists, Arabs, nazis, criminals are evil, so killing them...even in gruesome/gory ways is ok.

This could get fun!
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"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"

--Colonel Kurtz, Apocalypse Now
John Milius and Francis Ford Coppola

OT, but my own favorite quote from this movie by Capt. Willard:

"Charlie didn't get much USO. He was dug in too deep, or movin' too fast. His idea of R&R was cold rice and a little rat meat. He had only two ways home: death or victory."
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diamondspider wrote:
"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"

--Colonel Kurtz, Apocalypse Now
John Milius and Francis Ford Coppola

OT, but my own favorite quote from this movie by Capt. Willard:

"Charlie didn't get much USO. He was dug in too deep, or movin' too fast. His idea of R&R was cold rice and a little rat meat. He had only two ways home: death or victory."


Curses. I was just about to post the Kurtz quote! &^%$ you you &^$%£@ dirty &*^$%^&
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If it helps, my kids don't get to play gory games or watch gory movies either.

The goriest games/movies/TV shows that they're allowed are Pokemon or Age of Empires/Mythology and Power Rangers.

And, I think Paul has a valid point above.

Kids exposed to swearing, swear.
Kids exposed to killing, don't (99%).


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As one of the folks who asked about maybe a tamer version of that card, let me set the record straight. I did not ask about a cleaner version of the card out of some uptight, bible-thumping, anti freedom of speech, whatever twist you want to put on it, reason. I asked about it because I have respect for my wife. I would not play the game with my young children even with a clean card. I would play with my wife and friends.

You say "oh you're gorily hacking up zombies in this game with a chainsaw but you can't cuss". You are NOT gorily hacking up a zombie with a chainsaw you are playing down a card with a drawing of a chainsaw and taking a 1 inch plastic zombie off the board.

I didn't ask Romero to remove the F word from DotD, that would be kinda stupid. My wife doesn't watch horror films either. But she'll play a silly game.

You make it sound like we rallied at the courthouse steps with signs and picketed in protest. It was a simple request for a clean version of the cards. That's all. Quit trying to make a "I am so shocked at these stupid Christian/Parents/Liberals/whatevers" deal out of it.

Respect. that's all it is. My father taught it to me.
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fsumarc wrote:

You say "oh you're gorily hacking up zombies in this game with a chainsaw but you can't cuss". You are NOT gorily hacking up a zombie with a chainsaw you are playing down a card with a drawing of a chainsaw and taking a 1 inch plastic zombie off the board.


Right...

...and you are also NOT, by reading symbols shaped like F-U-C-K doing anything other than reading pixels printed onto paper in that shape.

We all assign meaning to all abstractions in the way we do. One is an abstraction of killing, another an abstraction referring to the process that brings new life into the world for most organisms, perhaps via using a somewhat unrefined term for that act: what again was the refined version of killing? Oh, perhaps there is none.

The point is why is one abstraction considered to be "ok" and the other "obscene": it is because sex is considered to be more taboo and "dirty" than violence in the U.S., and I find this to be truly obscene.
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I must admit I was a bit surprised by the naughty word problem in the game. I never considered that anybody who wanted a game where you kill lots of zombies with household objects would be concerned by a solitary swear word (actually I think I also used the word bugger in the rule book (uh-oh)).

However I can respect that some people might find it objectionable, which is why I posted the revised cards (although I would like to point out that the main downloadable version will continue to contain the word in question - I think it is a good movie quote, and I personally prefer to have it there).

I see that it is okay to kill fantasy creatures with a lawnmower, as no actual people are getting hurt. Maybe it allows us to explore our naturally violent nature as human animals without the guilt and disgust which we associate with violence. I don't know, I'm no big city lawyer. But people who are contemplating trying the game under these circumstances should be aware that the rules clearly state that you can also lawnmower the other players...
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fsumarc wrote:
You say "oh you're gorily hacking up zombies in this game with a chainsaw but you can't cuss". You are NOT gorily hacking up a zombie with a chainsaw you are playing down a card with a drawing of a chainsaw and taking a 1 inch plastic zombie off the board.


Do you have to say the word when you play the card? Just wondering if you have to use curse words in order to play the card.
Btw: this post is only partly ironic, the other half is a serious question
 
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joebelanger wrote:
Quote:
i respect everybody who wants to keep his kids from swear words. honestly. but i just can't get in my head why a gory theme like this should be BETTER for them?!?!


Are you kidding me?! How else are you going to train your kids against the threat of a zombie epidemic? Kids must be made aware that their neighbors, friends and family might become zombies at any moment and will be coming for their sweet, little brain-casings. You did the right thing, man.

Foul language is unacceptable.



That is hilarious!
 
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okay, let's see if i get this right.

Yeah, you got it right. We have a strange set of values over here. You can watch corpse's faces get peeled off on CSI and rapes on Law & Order, but if anyone shows a breast or says one of the "forbidden words" the FCC comes down like the Hand of God. It's just one of our little idiosyncracies.
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I can't believe Americans are actually digging in their heels and defending the POV that's being ridiculed... personally I'm embarassed by it (now doubly embarassed because its proving itself to be true right here on this thread).

I'm not trying to be a dick about it (oops, curse word-please don't report a concern), but seriously- if you could step outside the paradigms of our American culture for one second you would see how ridiculous our double standard with nudity/cursing and violence is... trying to defend it just shows either your ignorance or worse your obstinance.
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Okay, let me rephrase... it's not so much a question of were WRONG and they (you know, the Europeans, where the antichrist will rise laugh ) are RIGHT, but just that this cultural phenomenon is idiosyncratic and it is kind of silly to try and justify it on rational grounds... Robartin makes a good response- he doesn't apologize for the way we are but he recognizes it is just one of those things about our culture that doesn't make sense...
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